Politics

[Renton 22008]

Just now, Isegrim said:

They will just throw some nostalgia at voters how brilliant it was to have rationed food, starving plebs and public hangings back in the days to secure to get re-elected.

 

But that demographic is dying out, literally. 

[Rayvin 5310]

13 minutes ago, Renton said:

I think the tories are fucked personally. There's every indication that this winter is going to be the biggest shit sandwich ever. I don't think people are going to ignore this. Also, it's obvious the tories are now suffering similar problems to Labour with the split in their base. Johnson can't please both the red and blue walls, it's a circle that can't be squared.

 

But honestly, the country is fucked now for a generation. Government is now a poisoned chalice. My advice is protect yourselves and your families as best you can and let the tories get on with owning this. Just hope there is something left on the other side. 

 

I feel like I've been reading this on here for the last 10 years. They're never fucked.

[Isegrim 9906]

21 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

But that demographic is dying out, literally. 

The young are growing into the demographic. There is no need to gave personal experience as long as fake nostalgia is preserved by the history channel

[Tom 14013]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

I feel like I've been reading this on here for the last 10 years. They're never fucked.

I know. 
 

It’s like when Sunderland looked like they were surely about to get relegated every season for a decade but they’d claw it back somehow.

[PaddockLad 17698]

If the British public’s medium term record is anything to go by it’ll be another half decade before they turn on the tories….and there will have to be a new Labour leader who will stop the left in general tearing each other to shreds  

 

 

[Renton 22008]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

I feel like I've been reading this on here for the last 10 years. They're never fucked.

 

I know, but boy who cried wolf etc. What you see in politics typically isn't a gradual decline. Things hit a tipping point and its suddenly game over. Right now the tories have tipped the chair right back. They lean back anymore and the chair is toppling and they'll break their neck.

 

I hope.

[Renton 22008]

56 minutes ago, Isegrim said:

The young are growing into the demographic. There is no need to gave personal experience as long as fake nostalgia is preserved by the history channel

 

I've seen zero evidence of this both statistically and personally.

[Isegrim 9906]

8 hours ago, Renton said:

 

I've seen zero evidence of this both statistically and personally.

Really? A decent amount of the little englaenders have neither experienced the second world war nor the alleged golden era before joining the EU but without them neither would be your government in power nor would brexit have happened. It’s nothing you can just blame the over 70s alone.

And for the record, it’s not any different in Germany, too. There is the same amount to people getting attracted by conservative and right wing nostalgia even if they had different views when they were young. 

[Isegrim 9906]

As for statistic evidence just look at the voting records. If it was just down to voters of the age group of under 25s lthere would be left wing governments most of the time. But the percentage does normally gradually shift to the right with age and you do see a rtather different voting record from the same age group ten years later and so on.

[Renton 22008]

1 hour ago, Isegrim said:

As for statistic evidence just look at the voting records. If it was just down to voters of the age group of under 25s lthere would be left wing governments most of the time. But the percentage does normally gradually shift to the right with age and you do see a rtather different voting record from the same age group ten years later and so on.

 

You're right but that's because as you get older you aquire more wealth and gain more conservative values as you prioritise your family. Crucially you become a property owner. But will that happen with the millennials? They have been shafted in so many ways I doubt it. Propeery is beyond the reach of millions, have shit pensions, student loans, they have had FoM taken from them, and the birth rate is dropping because people can't afford kids or don't want to bring them up in a world ravaged by climate change. The tories have never even tried to hide their contempt for this generation. I can't see them being a compliant source of votes like the boomers were. 

[Alex 35614]

15 hours ago, Tom said:

Tbh I’ve learned the hard way the last few years that the left is largely populated by complete fucking idiots who couldn’t lie straight in bed. 
 

Whilst the Tories dip their hands in the till the left are perpetually stuck in the life of brian sketch with all the different splinter groups.

There’s people on Twitter, amongst the utter shit show we’re flying into, going about being Labour supporters but finding Starmer ‘unpalatable’ etc. These people seem incapable of putting the country before their 6th form ideology. 

[Rayvin 5310]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

There’s people on Twitter, amongst the utter shit show we’re flying into, going about being Labour supporters but finding Starmer ‘unpalatable’ etc. These people seem incapable of putting the country before their 6th form ideology. 

 

Not sure I'd quite describe my own views like that but it's basically where I am. He's betrayed my vote for him and looks useless - wouldn't say unpalatable per se but he's taking my vote for granted and so he's not getting it.

 

If that's sixth form ideology then the world can get fucked tbh. I suppose time will tell if that view holds up all the way to the voting booth but if there was an election tomorrow I'd not be voting Labour. Don't worry though, all the soft right Tories are going to be voting for him in spades, so my vote doesn't matter. Apparently.

 

He's losing those people through strategic choice on his own part, take it up with him. He has had absolutely no message for young, remain oriented progressive people. Frankly he's had no message for anyone as far as I can see, even the gammons he seems to want to get into bed with.

[Alex 35614]

Well that comes as a huge surprise 

[Tom 14013]

Aye  

 

Thats what we’re dealing with. A lot of people on the other side of the fence said similar about Corbyn, even ex coal miners i spoke to. “I’m not voting for that Marxist cunt” etc, just change Marxist for “centrist” or whatever.

 

We’re fucked from every direction. 
 

 

[Renton 22008]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

Not sure I'd quite describe my own views like that but it's basically where I am. He's betrayed my vote for him and looks useless - wouldn't say unpalatable per se but he's taking my vote for granted and so he's not getting it.

 

If that's sixth form ideology then the world can get fucked tbh. I suppose time will tell if that view holds up all the way to the voting booth but if there was an election tomorrow I'd not be voting Labour. Don't worry though, all the soft right Tories are going to be voting for him in spades, so my vote doesn't matter. Apparently.

 

He's losing those people through strategic choice on his own part, take it up with him. He has had absolutely no message for young, remain oriented progressive people. Frankly he's had no message for anyone as far as I can see, even the gammons he seems to want to get into bed with.

 

I haven't even bothered reading about Starmer's proposals yet, I'll get round to it at some point. I just want a non-idealistic, pragmatic government who are genuinely invested in fairness and equality, and I'll compromise almost everything to get it. Your powerless in opposition, being a principled opposition party is absolutely fucking pointless. You take power, and then set the agenda. And forget about the EU for at least a decade. It's gone. We now need a progressive government to slowly and gradually repair the damage done by this one. It'll happen, we'll get there (if a Labour coalition gets elected), but its going to be painful and will take a lot of time.

 

Also, Starmer may lose ideologues like you, but the ambition is to have net gains in votes in order to achieve power. It's the only way it can work with Labour, as Blair and Brown showed. 

[Alex 35614]

Corbyn won the argument. Despite how fucking batshit crazy politics and the world in general has been over the last 5 years ago that is still a stand out 

[Tom 14013]

That’s such a dangerous line of thought and it seems to have stifled a lot of debate among campaigners and even some MPs.

 

It seems to to something like this :

 

MP - “this situation is bad, the tories are bad!” END 

 

They never seem to even form an argument, let  alone an articulate argument that would change someone’s mind. 
 

In addition to that half of them are still wanking themselves daft over coal mining or the battle of Stockton in 1936 whilst the country falls to pieces.

 

Most of the electorate couldn’t give a fuck & the people who do gets less & less every day.

[Alex 35614]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

That’s such a dangerous line of thought and it seems to have stifled a lot of debate among campaigners and even some MPs.

 

It seems to to something like this :

 

MP - “this situation is bad, the tories are bad!” END 

 

They never seem to even form an argument, let  alone an articulate argument that would change someone’s mind. 
 

In addition to that half of them are still wanking themselves daft over coal mining or the battle of Stockton in 1936 whilst the country falls to pieces.

 

Most of the electorate couldn’t give a fuck & the people who do gets less & less every day.

They frequently get battered on the daily politics and shows like that. Asked “What’s your solution?” and they usually fail to have a prepared answer 

[Tom 14013]

I think a lot of them prefer gesture politics & “luxury beliefs” to actually proposing solutions. 
 

I think basic common sense proposals would go down a storm at the moment but they’re afraid of being called tories if they come out with them. 
 

We don’t need radical change per se, just for things to be a bit less shit. One those changes are in place by all means move further left but for that to happen you have to genuinely “win the argument”.

[Rayvin 5310]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

 

I haven't even bothered reading about Starmer's proposals yet, I'll get round to it at some point. I just want a non-idealistic, pragmatic government who are genuinely invested in fairness and equality, and I'll compromise almost everything to get it. Your powerless in opposition, being a principled opposition party is absolutely fucking pointless. You take power, and then set the agenda. And forget about the EU for at least a decade. It's gone. We now need a progressive government to slowly and gradually repair the damage done by this one. It'll happen, we'll get there (if a Labour coalition gets elected), but its going to be painful and will take a lot of time.

 

Also, Starmer may lose ideologues like you, but the ambition is to have net gains in votes in order to achieve power. It's the only way it can work with Labour, as Blair and Brown showed. 

 

The only thing he could put forward that I would throw him my vote over at this point is PR. If he promises a referendum on that or however he wants to go about it, he'll get my vote with or without any clear vision or plan.

 

He's not going to do it though because the arrogance within the Labour party is breathtaking. As you say, they're powerless in opposition. You'd think they would be able to see that this was the only way forward, and yet here we are.

[Rayvin 5310]

5 minutes ago, Tom said:

I think a lot of them prefer gesture politics & “luxury beliefs” to actually proposing solutions. 
 

I think basic common sense proposals would go down a storm at the moment but they’re afraid of being called tories if they come out with them. 
 

We don’t need radical change per se, just for things to be a bit less shit. One those changes are in place by all means move further left but for that to happen you have to genuinely “win the argument”.

 

Johnson seems to be capturing a lot of that pragmatic centreground though. Moreover, he's doing it with a far more convincing dash of 'Patriotic fervour' than Starmer is ever going to be able to manage. I mean ffs, Starmer is now in a position where he's arguing against a Tory government which is raising taxes to better pay for health care.

 

I think we do need radical change since we're running out of time to fix this both as a country regarding our society, and as a species regarding climate change. Another 10 years and there'll be no going back to anything like what we had under Blair, even with another Labour government. Too much water will have gone under the bridge, and our far lowered expectations will accept any meagre gesture our ruling class deign to give us. You're talking about things being a bit less shit. They were a bit less shit under Cameron, are you saying you'd be happy with going back to that? Is that now what a Labour government should be aiming at?

 

To get back to where New Labour were from here requires radical change. Then we can talk about whether or not there's merit in heading further left. I'm not fussed at that stage really but we can't keep pussy footing around the serious issues.

[Tom 14013]

He’s arguing about who the taxes effect, which is only fair tbh.

 

This country will never vote for “radical change”  because it’s full of cunts & for some “radical change” constitutes food on the table rather than public ownership or the railways or electric car grants.

 

What should a Labour  be aiming at? Getting elected.

[Isegrim 9906]

The discussion is superfluous…

That’s how you secure another term.

[Rayvin 5310]

The only way it's getting elected is through PR.

 

I've been reflecting on my views on this for the past half an hour and I suppose the truth to my position on this is worth mentioning. I'm not a left wing idealogue, I'm not chasing a particular vision of left wing government. What I am, is furious. I've been furious for years now. I am furious that we have Brexit, I'm furious that older voters who have had the easiest political lifespans in history consistently fuck over people in my generation and younger. I'm furious that we had 10 years of austerity because New Labour couldn't build a simple fucking narrative to challenge it.

 

But more than anything at this point, I am incandescent that I am now meant to sit down and break bread with the fuckers who voted for all of this, that I'm meant to take one for the team and support weak and pathetic pandering to these people - people who don't analyse policy before voting, who don't inform themselves, and who are consistently voting against their own best interests due to some nebulous bullshit about patriotism.

 

I'm meant to turn the other cheek on Brexit ffs, the greatest act of national self harm that this country has possibly ever seen - an act carried out by traitors and liars with the consent of the blind. There is no possible way I can stomach that, it's just not going to happen - and I am appalled that the fucking Labour party has thrown in to try and win over these people not by demonstrating the error of their ways, but by treating them as fucking children and lying to them about Brexit and "how they made the right choice but the Tories are just doing it wrong".

 

And it expects me, you, all of us to be complicit in this. To all pretend that this is ok and to hide our real feelings and agendas until we get elected, at which point we do what? Either we do fuck all because we need these people to vote for us next time, or we introduce reform by stealth. The problem with the latter is, the people we need to hoodwink to get into power to do this, already know that this is our plan. They don't trust us to implement their fucked up right wing bullshit. And why the fuck would they? They're not children and we need to stop treating them like children. People in this country need to be battered over the head with the truth until it finally sinks the fuck in - and if it never does, then we didn't deserve a functional country in the first place.

 

So if I'm an ideologue for any particular view, it's that. Not the left, not socialism, not utopias - just the fucking truth.

[Tom 14013]

Starmer was the one getting pelters for proposing a “people’s vote” on Brexit wasn’t he?

 

Which people retrospectively attributed to Labour losing the election so spectacularly.