Politics

[AgentAxeman 189]

Interesting to see the French and Germans now talking about a Eurozone Government!!!! Isnt this what they have been after all along. Makes you wonder

 

Also interesting to see Germanys economy has stalled and is currently growing at half the rate of the UK.

 

http://news.sky.com/home/business/article/16050832

I don't know if it's in this thread or another, but somewhere in here I said that I think that would be a good idea! If we create an entire financial union it could stabilize all of Europe's economy. If the two big players in the Eurozone believe in it I think they're either trying to look after their own backs or trying to further help the countries in problems (probably both). Eurosceptics will probably look at it shiftily but a sort of Federal system could benefit the Eurozone in the long run.

 

I also challenge someone to tell me the potential problems. That's not cocky either, i'm genuinely interested in finding out what the problems of such a government would be.

 

 

Sorry Clee but have you ever been described (or prescribed) as clinically insane?

 

 

 

I think the fact that quite a few EU countries have had to be bailed out recently as some form of justification as to why a 'Greater' European union wouldn't work.

[DEADMAN 0]

i dont know what lib dem fans are moaning for it should be labour you should be kicking off at they left us with a huge deficit and are liers and said theres no money left

[Gemmill 46032]

i dont know what lib dem fans are moaning for it should be labour you should be kicking off at they left us with a huge deficit and are liers and said theres no money left

 

@ "lib dem fans" and just the general ridiculousness of it all.

[Christmas Tree 4827]

So the truth is finally confirmed, Labour and Gordon Brown didn't have a scooby doo during the financial mis management of 2008.

 

Should be up on charges, the lot of them.

[DEADMAN 0]

labour is responsible for this crap they were spending spending spending and now people are blaming the conservatives for the cuts

[Kid Dynamite 7171]

You don't strike me as Tory deadman

[DEADMAN 0]

would people attack me if i said i was a tory party fan

[NJS 4411]

labour is responsible for this crap they were spending spending spending and now people are blaming the conservatives for the cuts

 

Read the other day that the maximum spending under Labour was 35% of GDP - this was frequently exceeded by Thatcher and reached 40% under John Major.

[DEADMAN 0]

that maybe true that spending was maybe higher on thatcher or major it might be different now due to the debt

[Christmas Tree 4827]

would people attack me if i said i was a tory party fan

 

No, they would like you more.

[NJS 4411]

that maybe true that spending was maybe higher on thatcher or major it might be different now due to the debt

 

If you bothered reading HF's many accurate posts on this you'd know that the spending was fine until a global recession hit which caused revenues to fall.

 

If there was growth then the increased revenues would easily cover this so called fatal debt - but idealogical cuts strangle growth.

[DEADMAN 0]

heh i doubt it cause some people on here maybe labour party fans or lib dem fans but dont want to admit it. but its fine end of the day its upto me

[snakehips 0]

heh i doubt it cause some people on here maybe labour party fans or lib dem fans but dont want to admit it. but its fine end of the day its upto me

 

Anyone who criticises another's political stance is a dick imo. Everyone thinks they have the right answer, but no one actually does. The truth is the world is all interlinked with each other, so on our own, we can't make all the horridness go away - just like every other country can't have it all hunky dory without each other having a good/reasonable time of it also. The arab states which have rebelled are expecting things to change. They wont. And when the realisation dawns on them, the radicals will take over. The Israelis are demonstrating against the cost of living; what are they going to do, magically make things cheaper without any consequences to the State ? And on and on and on it goes.

[DEADMAN 0]

well i guess they could cut the amount of taxes on fuel for starters and other tight regulation thats going on

[ChezGiven 0]

Economy was growing at 2.5% when the coalition started to cut budgets, now the economy is completely stalled. We're in a great depression, output has still not returned to pre-2008 levels (i.e. we are a smaller economy than we were 3 years ago) and the outlook is grim. Osbourne, Cameron and many inexperienced investors have all claimed we have a debt problem.

 

The problem is not debt its lack of growth. Grow the economy and the deficit disappears. End off.

[ewerk 31207]

Is anyone in the western world showing decent levels of growth?

[Guest alex]

Nice to see Darling having a bit whinge about members of his own party sticking the knife in whilst he does the same thing. Some of his comments are quite funny though.

[ChezGiven 0]

Is anyone in the western world showing decent levels of growth?

Is anyone not cutting spending? UK and US were seeing growth until the change in policy from expansionary fiscal policy to contractionary. In a recession, if everyone in the global market all tries to cut spending at once, the overall depressive impact is to throttle the global economy.

 

What choice is there? Interest rates are as low as they go, further QE is limited by inflation concerns so we can either cut spending or leave it as it is. We could look at taxes too. Thats the policy toolbox, nowt else.

 

So, has cutting worked?

[Kevin S. Assilleekunt 1]

I agree with Chez, without having a deep knowledge or understanding of economics, I got the impression from what I did read (and previous examples) that the austerity measures were unimaginative, uninspired and ultimately would stifle any recovery. There were plenty of economists making that case, it's hardly a surprise.

[ewerk 31207]

Is anyone in the western world showing decent levels of growth?

Is anyone not cutting spending? UK and US were seeing growth until the change in policy from expansionary fiscal policy to contractionary. In a recession, if everyone in the global market all tries to cut spending at once, the overall depressive impact is to throttle the global economy.

 

What choice is there? Interest rates are as low as they go, further QE is limited by inflation concerns so we can either cut spending or leave it as it is. We could look at taxes too. Thats the policy toolbox, nowt else.

 

So, has cutting worked?

 

But the ratings agencies said we should all be cutting spending.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3974]

Economy was growing at 2.5% when the coalition started to cut budgets, now the economy is completely stalled. We're in a great depression, output has still not returned to pre-2008 levels (i.e. we are a smaller economy than we were 3 years ago) and the outlook is grim. Osbourne, Cameron and many inexperienced investors have all claimed we have a debt problem.

 

The problem is not debt its lack of growth. Grow the economy and the deficit disappears. End off.

 

 

You do understand that we are about 1 trillion pounds in debt. Cutting the deficit is not the problem it's paying the debt which is a millstone and we can't pay back the debt if we still borrow more than we earn. And we can't borrow our way out of debt.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Kevin Carr's Gloves

[ChezGiven 0]

Economy was growing at 2.5% when the coalition started to cut budgets, now the economy is completely stalled. We're in a great depression, output has still not returned to pre-2008 levels (i.e. we are a smaller economy than we were 3 years ago) and the outlook is grim. Osbourne, Cameron and many inexperienced investors have all claimed we have a debt problem.

 

The problem is not debt its lack of growth. Grow the economy and the deficit disappears. End off.

 

 

You do understand that we are about 1 trillion pounds in debt. Cutting the deficit is not the problem it's paying the debt which is a millstone and we can't pay back the debt if we still borrow more than we earn. And we can't borrow our way out of debt.

No, the defict is the problem as it drives up the yields on treasury bonds. Debt is not a problem if your creditors are happy. A deficit is a problem if your creditors think your economy is stalled. Think of it simply, if there is a deficit then the debt is getting bigger, if there is a surplus the debt is getting smaller. The only route to surplus is economic growth, not reduced spending.

 

Why? With no effective monetary policy to implement, cutting spending reduces aggregate demand, increases government welfare and reduces taxes. This makes the deficit worse which is exactly what is happening to the UK. Go back to IS-LM analysis and think it through. Deficit - > cutting spending - > increased deficit = shitstorm on the markets.

[Christmas Tree 4827]

First PMQ's of the new session off to a good start with Spock getting his usual weekly kicking.

 

Thought he was meant to be getting an op to sort his nasally voice out. Sounds worse than ever.

[PaddockLad 17657]

50p tax rate......who exactly is being put off by it and thus "slowing the recovery?....hedge fund managers? local government cheifs?...footballers?...

 

"The economists dispute these estimates, arguing the 50p rate “punishes” wealth and entrepreneurship."

 

This is what they appear to be basing this proposistion around, but am fucked if I can work out who is being so discouraged that they will award themselves a salary in excess of 150k p.a. in the first few years of setting up a business in this country. I bet the fuckers who signed the letter demanding change are affected by it though

 

Support grows for keeping 50p tax rate

 

By Chris Giles, George Parker and Kiran Stacey

 

Politicians from Labour and the Liberal Democrats joined forces with trade unions to argue for a retention of the 50p top rate of income tax after 20 leading economists called for it to be scrapped “as soon as possible” in a letter to the FT.

 

Alistair Darling, the chancellor who introduced the rate in 2009, and Tim Farron, the Lib Dem president, said on Wednesday that lowering the top rate of tax would be unfair while the economy was still in difficulty.

 

Mr Darling said: “This has got to stay in place until we get out of the crisis. It would be grossly unfair to remove it. In the long run you have got to keep your tax rates internationally competitive which means something like the two rates we used to have. To remove it today would be grossly unfair. If they do not pay their taxes then it is poorer people who are going to pay.”

 

He was supported by Mr Farron, who said scrapping the 50p rate would be “phenomenally immoral and send an appalling message to the overwhelming majority of hard-working people in this country”.

 

Ed Balls, Labour shadow chancellor, also weighed in: “If we really are all in this together then the right priority to boost the stalled economy now should be temporarily reversing the VAT rise, which is costing families with children around £450 a year. This temporary tax cut would help to kick-start the recovery and give a much needed boost to millions of people regardless of their income.

 

“If the chancellor really wants to know how effective the top rate of tax is he should immediately ask the Office for Budget Responsibility, not just HMRC, to produce a report genuinely independent of government.”

 

Their warnings came after the Trades Union Congress also took issue with the suggestion of an immediate tax cut for top earners.

 

Brendan Barber, general secretary of the Trades Union Congress called the economists’ opinion “monstrously unfair”, adding: “At a time when cuts are biting hard and ordinary people are suffering the biggest squeeze on their living standards in years, the last thing we need is a handout to the wealthiest in our society.”

 

But DeAnne Julius, the former member of the Bank of England’s monetary policy committee and one of the signatories of the letter, defended her position to the BBC, saying many hedge funds had already moved to Switzerland and that, if marginal rates were raised on a small number of highly mobile people, “You end up not collecting the tax that you’d hoped to.”

 

“Only by returning to an internationally competitive tax regime will Britain enjoy long-term sustainable economic growth,” the economists say in their letter.

 

The signatories include many figures not usually associated with conservative causes, such as Bob Rowthorn of Cambridge University, and two former members of the Bank of England’s policy committee, Ms Julius and Sushil Wadhwani.

 

George Osborne, chancellor of the exchequer, is already facing pressure from the Tory right and CBI employers’ organisation to scrap the “temporary” top tax rate.

 

The Treasury believed that the 50p rate, introduced by the former Labour government in April 2010 on annual taxable incomes above £150,000, would eventually raise £2.7bn a year. Combined with restrictions on income tax relief for pension contributions and the abolition of the income tax personal allowance for people with annual incomes above £100,000, last year’s tax increases on the rich were designed to raise £7bn per annum.

 

The economists dispute these estimates, arguing the 50p rate “punishes” wealth and entrepreneurship. “It is often portrayed as a justified tax on the rich, but the economic damage it causes means that it is against the interests even of ordinary workers who don’t pay it,” they write.

 

Last month Mr Osborne said “there’s not much point in having taxes that are economically inefficient”. He added that the rate was uncompetitive internationally and targeted wealthy people who were already paying taxes on their capital gains.

 

Government officials, however, have suggested that the top rate is unlikely to be scrapped until 2013 at the earliest, when a pay freeze affecting millions of public sector workers is due to be lifted.

 

Nick Clegg, Liberal Democrat leader, will insist the 50p top rate can only be scrapped if other measures, such as a property or “mansion” tax, are introduced to ensure the wealthy pay their “fair share” towards cutting the deficit. The Lib Dems will also insist that the 50p rate’s abolition is accompanied by accelerated moves to raise the annual tax threshold to £10,000.

 

Other leading economists are more sceptical. Paul Johnson, director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies and not a signatory of the letter, said it was much too early to give up on the 50p rate: “The Treasury has been taking a punt on whether [the 50p rate] will raise money. It is taking a risk, but it is not a stupid punt.”

[NJS 4411]

True "Entrepreneurs" don't pay normal income tax so its a shit argument.

 

If someone earns 300k say then on the the last 150k they retain 75k at present - if it was dropped they'd have an extra 15k - if you give someone who has all they want another 15k what the fuck will they do with it? Get the leather seat option on their next 911 at a guess - how the fuck does that boost the economy?

 

Absolute cunts.