Politics

[Dr Gloom 24223]

16 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

People feel also afraid that white people are being replaced, that Muslims are trying to stealth conquer the UK, that the government is run by paedophiles, that lizard people walk amongst us, chemtrails, vaccines, 5G, and so on.

 

 

true, but enough about parky. he stopped posting here years ago 

[Rayvin 6428]

I've changed my mind on engaging in this further, just forget I said anything.

[Craig 7299]

35 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I have a view that is entirely open to change on the basis of actual evidence. That's my default position on everything, and it should be yours.

In the absence of definitively proven evidence, I prefer not to be drawn in either direction and I'd prefer even more to be not told what my position should be.

Hugely emotive subject where too many people who aren't directly impacted draw their own conclusions and consider them to be sacrosanct.

People have no validity to express concerns for safety unless in the presence of previously recorded examples?

[ewerk 34034]

5 minutes ago, Craig said:

People have no validity to express concerns for safety unless in the presence of previously recorded examples?

 

Well... yes. It has been going on in other countries without happening so it's entirely irrational to think that the UK would be any different.

[Monkeys Fist 46192]

2 hours ago, Craig said:

First chapter of my sister's book goes in to waaaaaaaay too much detail about 'plumbing realignment' for the inverse so I would guess so.

I’d forgotten your sis is trans mate. 
 

That whole experience must’ve been challenging for everyone concerned. 
 

One of my nieces is probably going to transition soon- they have already asked everyone to call them by their (male) name of choice, and once they reach 18 I’d imagine the full process will begin. 
 

How long did the transition take in your sisters case, if you’re ok talking about it? 

[Craig 7299]

1 minute ago, Monkeys Fist said:

I’d forgotten your sis is trans mate. 
 

That whole experience must’ve been challenging for everyone concerned. 
 

One of my nieces is probably going to transition in a few years- they have already asked everyone to call them by their (male) name of choice, and once they reach 18 I’d imagine the full process will begin. 
 

How long did the transition take in your sisters case, if you’re ok talking about it? 

Happy to talk about it. 

Your second sentence is spot on. The focus tends naturally to be on the impact to the individual electing to transition - the impact to those around them becomes secondary. 

My sis announced she was transitioning in September 2012. She was married with 3 children aged at the time, 15, 12 & 10. I found out sometime down the line that the kids were informed only days before my Dad and I were. My other brother had known for about 6 months it was coming, as did my sister's wife. I'm hazy on the timings but i seem to recall her social transition (when she started to permanently offer appearance as the opposite gender) took place in the December and given she's a school teacher - that also had its massive challenges. 

My sister remains married - they'll be celebrating their 32nd anniversary this summer. The kids refer to my sister as she & her, but call her Dad. It all comes naturally to them and to me the 5 of them have shown enormous strength to remain united. My only anger towards my sister was she was so hell bent on pushing ahead with this, she didn't stop to acknowledge the impact on those close to her - particularly the kids. I remember asking early doors how their counselling was going which was met with "they don't need it, they're fine." which resulted in me losing my shit. 

The most common question I've been asked is if she is fully transitioned which she is, and I believe took place in 2016 - though I had no knowledge of it happening and didn't ask questions. They only reason I know it has and when it was is because I've read the first couple of chapters of her book. 

There's other impacts to consider - my Dad is coming up for 86 so was early 70s when all this came out - he still massively struggles with it and I know he's questioned himself whether he got something wrong - particularly when my sis said she'd known since the age of 3 that her gender wasn't right but elected to suppress it for the next 40-odd years . My Mam, passed away 28 years ago so knew nothing about it and for that, I'm glad. She'd not have coped. 

I struggle with it as well - I'm 9 years younger so the person who I witnessed demonstrating typically masculine adolescence behaviour was in fact living a massive lie - she's admitted as much. My own way of dealing with it is that pre-December 2012, I had an older brother, David and any reference that predates that I use male pronouns. Since then, I've had an older sister, Debbie and any reference after that point I use feminine pronouns. It confuses my other half at times but it's the only way I can get my head around the whole thing.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 4347]

2 hours ago, Gemmill said:

Why is breast feeding now chest feeding?

 

There's no food coming out of chests unless we're talking about the prime fillet steak that is my pecs. 

That’s not where fillet comes from 

[Craig 7299]

25 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

Well... yes. It has been going on in other countries without happening so it's entirely irrational to think that the UK would be any different.

We're not going to reach a point of agreement on this so best just left. 

[ewerk 34034]

3 minutes ago, Craig said:

We're not going to reach a point of agreement on this so best just left. 

 

Aye, I disagree with your position but I understand how you've come to a different view to me.

[Monkeys Fist 46192]

16 minutes ago, Craig said:

Happy to talk about it. 

Your second sentence is spot on. The focus tends naturally to be on the impact to the individual electing to transition - the impact to those around them becomes secondary. 

My sis announced she was transitioning in September 2012. She was married with 3 children aged at the time, 15, 12 & 10. I found out sometime down the line that the kids were informed only days before my Dad and I were. My other brother had known for about 6 months it was coming, as did my sister's wife. I'm hazy on the timings but i seem to recall her social transition (when she started to permanently offer appearance as the opposite gender) took place in the December and given she's a school teacher - that also had its massive challenges. 

My sister remains married - they'll be celebrating their 32nd anniversary this summer. The kids refer to my sister as she & her, but call her Dad. It all comes naturally to them and to me the 5 of them have shown enormous strength to remain united. My only anger towards my sister was she was so hell bent on pushing ahead with this, she didn't stop to acknowledge the impact on those close to her - particularly the kids. I remember asking early doors how their counselling was going which was met with "they don't need it, they're fine." which resulted in me losing my shit. 

The most common question I've been asked is if she is fully transitioned which she is, and I believe took place in 2016 - though I had no knowledge of it happening and didn't ask questions. They only reason I know it has and when it was is because I've read the first couple of chapters of her book. 

There's other impacts to consider - my Dad is coming up for 86 so was early 70s when all this came out - he still massively struggles with it and I know he's questioned himself whether he got something wrong - particularly when my sis said she'd known since the age of 3 that her gender wasn't right but elected to suppress it for the next 40-odd years . My Mam, passed away 28 years ago so knew nothing about it and for that, I'm glad. She'd not have coped. 

I struggle with it as well - I'm 9 years younger so the person who I witnessed demonstrating typically masculine adolescence behaviour was in fact living a massive lie - she's admitted as much. My own way of dealing with it is that pre-December 2012, I had an older brother, David and any reference that predates that I use male pronouns. Since then, I've had an older sister, Debbie and any reference after that point I use feminine pronouns. It confuses my other half at times but it's the only way I can get my head around the whole thing.

 Cheers man, good if you to post that. 
 

Regarding my niece, we were asked to use their new name about two years ago, when they were 15ish. 
They dress as male, but in actual fact it’s more non-gender specific- jeans, band shirts etc. 

They keep their hair short. 
 

I still refer to them as my niece because other than being asked to use their new name, that’s all the info we’ve had. 
 

I use they/them because I don’t know what else to use, and niece because as far as I’m aware there isn’t a non-gender version. 
 

My Mrs’ family are all onboard, but just don’t ever talk about the stuff I’d like to know- just the basics, would they like be referred to as he/him, she/her, or they /them? 
Niece or Nephew? 
 

I suspect if things follow their logical course, the discussion will be had, but I’d have preferred it done so we don’t inadvertently upset them. 

[Craig 7299]

Furthermore she's absolutely despised by large sections of the trans community about her views on the very subject of what is a woman. 

Many years ago there was a t-shirt in circulation with the slogan "Trans women are women, get over it!". My sister chose to have a t-shirt of the same design made with the slogan "Trans women are men, get over it" and wore it at a public demonstration. A photo of her went viral on social media and she was subjected to quite horrendous abuse and death threats as a result. 

I'm not defending her position. As I've stated many times I refuse to be drawn either way on this subject and understand the views of both sides and ultimately, she's chosen to put herself in the firing line, but the level of abuse was, in my opinion, disproportionate and, as much as I try keep myself out of this minefield, it's really difficult when you can someone who shares the same parents as you and who you've known and looked up to for years being subjected to such horrendous commentary. 

[Craig 7299]

1 minute ago, Monkeys Fist said:

 Cheers man, good if you to post that. 
 

Regarding my niece, we were asked to use their new name about two years ago, when they were 15ish. 
They dress as male, but in actual fact it’s more non-gender specific- jeans, band shirts etc. 

They keep their hair short. 
 

I still refer to them as my niece because other than being asked to use their new name, that’s all the info we’ve had. 
 

I use they/them because I don’t know what else to use, and niece because as far as I’m aware there isn’t a non-gender version. 
 

My Mrs’ family are all onboard, but just don’t ever talk about the stuff I’d like to know- just the basics, would they like be referred to as he/him, she/her, or they /them? 
Niece or Nephew? 
 

I suspect if things follow their logical course, the discussion will be had, but I’d have preferred it done so we don’t inadvertently upset them. 

Based on my own experience, I'd reach out to them to discuss these very points with them - particularly around which pronouns they prefer you to use. They'll likely see it positively as your acceptance of their position and a willingness to be supportive of them. 

One of my good mates who I worked with for years had a daughter 2 years older than mine who I've known since she was a toddler. Lucie elected to transition in her mid-teens and is now known as Cal. My mate Steve talked to me at some length given it was a few years since my sister transitioned. The bottom line we both agree is it's vital to talk about it. They see it as absolute inclusion.

[Christmas Tree 5311]

As a right of centre leaning, Brexit voting alleged gammon, I couldn’t care about any of this. Live and let live. And if going through it made a child of mine happier, 100% support.

 

I am however very jealous of the bionic bollock.

Edited 4 hours ago by Christmas Tree

[Dr Gloom 24223]

21 hours ago, Rayvin said:

I just keep thinking back to how I was assured that if I just gave ground, if I stopped calling out Starmer's U-turns and Labour's inability to stand up for anything at all, it would all be ok. We'd reach power and then everything would be better. And now I feel like a prize fucking idiot because I knew it would be like this, and yet tried to convince myself otherwise. It's this, disability cuts, Brexit revisionism, weakness with Trump, weakness with everything. Constant pandering to people who aren't even listening, and don't represent this party's views.

 

This is exactly what I feared from this version of Labour. All I have learned in the past few years is that if you give any ground at all, the slimy fucking toads will use it to take whatever they can. They deserve to be completely abandoned by the left and progressives, and I will be selling that to anyone who will listen. Bring on Reform, at least it's an enemy that isn't pretending to be something else.

It increasingly looks like I was wrong about Starmer. I hope he would do what the Tories are very good at: win power at the centre then move to the right (or left in steamer’s case) once in power. How wrong I was. There is still time left for him to do this but the early evidence isn’t positive. He has been gutless on Brexit and appears so scared of breaking his fragile coalition that he would prefer to mirror the neoliberal/austerity policies of Cameron and Osborne than bring about any meaningful change. This won’t win him any votes in the red wall and nor will his flip flopping over culture war issues. His supporters will say he’s managed to stop Reform using it as a wedge issue as there’s now so little between them on this particular matter but all he’s achieving is alienating a lot of socially progressive Labour voters.  

[Rayvin 6428]

Agreed.

 

And on that note... Badenoch refuses to criticise Jenrick over Reform coalition suggestion. That'll do it, I would think. Reform gets legitimacy, Tories get vote share.

[Dazzler 12587]

2 hours ago, ewerk said:

 

Well... yes. It has been going on in other countries without happening so it's entirely irrational to think that the UK would be any different.

If this turns out to be our equivalent of “don’t take muh guns, this is murica” I’ll be fucking fuming tbh.

[Craig 7299]

19 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

It increasingly looks like I was wrong about Starmer. I hope he would do what the Tories are very good at: win power at the centre then move to the right (or left in steamer’s case) once in power. How wrong I was. There is still time left for him to do this but the early evidence isn’t positive. He has been gutless on Brexit and appears so scared of breaking his fragile coalition that he would prefer to mirror the neoliberal/austerity policies of Cameron and Osborne than bring about any meaningful change. This won’t win him any votes in the red wall and nor will his flip flopping over culture war issues. His supporters will say he’s managed to stop Reform using it as a wedge issue as there’s now so little between them on this particular matter but all he’s achieving is alienating a lot of socially progressive Labour voters.  

The crux of your post is demonstrative of why the political system in it's current state is fucked and needs reform (NO, not that Reform!). 

As you rightly point out, to win power you need to be centrist and then the expectation on both sides is for the respective parties to lean towards their respective traditions and be considered weak and gutless if they appear to not do so in an undefined timescale. 

This country desperately needs PR and likely governments built on coalition instead of traditional one-party views. And not like the 'coalition of chaos' that was 2010-15 - it needs true equal-standing coalition where the best interests of the electorate take precedence, not a focus on career politics.

[Gemmill 52170]

 

This fucking scruff. 

 

[Craig 7299]

Fuck me. Reform can't even spell Frankenstein correctly.

[Rayvin 6428]

12 minutes ago, Craig said:

The crux of your post is demonstrative of why the political system in it's current state is fucked and needs reform (NO, not that Reform!). 

As you rightly point out, to win power you need to be centrist and then the expectation on both sides is for the respective parties to lean towards their respective traditions and be considered weak and gutless if they appear to not do so in an undefined timescale. 

This country desperately needs PR and likely governments built on coalition instead of traditional one-party views. And not like the 'coalition of chaos' that was 2010-15 - it needs true equal-standing coalition where the best interests of the electorate take precedence, not a focus on career politics.

 

Absolutely, we've been calling for PR for years now and it's incredible that it still doesn't get the attention it deserves outside of fking Farage. Labour members lobbied for it but Starmer ignored them unfortunately.

 

Having said that, I'm not sure it would protect us from a Reform/Tory coalition anyway, but it's still the right direction to move in. Labour's broad church argument only works for as long as left leaning people put up with them moving right, and you'd have to imagine that this can't hold up.

[Craig 7299]

The main parties avoid going beyond the discussion point as it's turkey's voting for Christmas and not in their career interests. 

Smaller parties are in favour of it as it increases their chances to govern in some manner. If Farage thought for one moment Reform had a chance of governing as a majority, he'd be dead against PR. 

With very few exceptions, modern-day politicians are self-serving career-driven cunts - because the system as it stands drives that behaviour.

[Rayvin 6428]

Just now, Craig said:

The main parties avoid going beyond the discussion point as it's turkey's voting for Christmas and not in their career interests. 

Smaller parties are in favour of it as it increases their chances to govern in some manner. If Farage thought for one moment Reform had a chance of governing as a majority, he'd be dead against PR. 

With very few exceptions, modern-day politicians are self-serving career-driven cunts - because the system as it stands drives that behaviour.

 

It's exactly that yes, but it's so depressing that they can't just take one for the team on it. I'm moderate left wing and even just having a moderate left wing party that I could vote for without it being a life or death, do or die situation of pressure to vote for Labour every single time then I genuinely believe I would be more at peace with the UK and the political situation within it. What has annoyed me more than anything is what Labour would use my vote as a mandate for. I don't agree with so much of it, why are they the only ones I can vote without enabling fascism. That's what boils my head at this point.

 

Last time out I didn't vote Labour (but was in Scotland so didn't matter much), but said that I would if they offered PR. I stand by that. I'm close to saying I would vote in fucking Farage if he offered PR.