Politics

[Rayvin 6428]

I just keep thinking back to how I was assured that if I just gave ground, if I stopped calling out Starmer's U-turns and Labour's inability to stand up for anything at all, it would all be ok. We'd reach power and then everything would be better. And now I feel like a prize fucking idiot because I knew it would be like this, and yet tried to convince myself otherwise. It's this, disability cuts, Brexit revisionism, weakness with Trump, weakness with everything. Constant pandering to people who aren't even listening, and don't represent this party's views.

 

This is exactly what I feared from this version of Labour. All I have learned in the past few years is that if you give any ground at all, the slimy fucking toads will use it to take whatever they can. They deserve to be completely abandoned by the left and progressives, and I will be selling that to anyone who will listen. Bring on Reform, at least it's an enemy that isn't pretending to be something else.

[Gemmill 52175]

11 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Bring on Reform, at least it's an enemy that isn't pretending to be something else.

 

You don't mean this. Things could be a lot lot worse, and they would be with Reform in charge. 

 

If you think things are bad now... 

[Rayvin 6428]

2 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

You don't mean this. Things could be a lot lot worse, and they would be with Reform in charge. 

 

If you think things are bad now... 

 

If the frog boils quickly, it might realise it's dying.

 

Although I really meant that I'm not going to worry about them winning when it next comes to vote. We're a long way from my fucking principles anyway now.

[Alex 37675]

It’s a really difficult situation the government are in. And Gemmill is correct that things can get massively worse. The trans issue is a huge trap (especially after the recent ruling) that most of the press are desperate for Starmer to fall into. And it’s a mental situation in general with regards to all forms of media now. The algorithms that permeate and influence the views of so many people. And that’s not me trying to make a wholesale defence of this government. It’s just everything is so polarised there’s no room for any nuance even before you take into account the right wing bias controlling (or at least having most influence over) the narrative. And I also say this without meaning I don’t care about trans rights this is something that, even in far more normal times, most people should not care that deeply about. And by that I mean it doesn’t fucking impact their lives at all beyond them being told it does for the vast majority. But everything’s either woke or anti-woke now. 

[Alex 37675]

20 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

If the frog boils quickly, it might realise it's dying.

 

Although I really meant that I'm not going to worry about them winning when it next comes to vote. We're a long way from my fucking principles anyway now.

Mate, unless they’re getting turfed out their homes or getting sacked they’ll bury their heads in the sand. Maybe it does have to get worse for people to actually wake up. But look at the mess of the last government and how long it took to remove them. Not to mention Farage and co soaring in the polls and having absolved themselves of the Brexit fiasco by changing their name. I genuinely reckon most people wouldn’t know Reform used to be the Brexit party. And a far chunk of those that did know would buy ‘the wrong kind of Brexit’ bollocks. Anyway, fuck this shit (for now), it’s too depressing 

[Rayvin 6428]

I want to be clear that I in no way judge or am critical of anyone in here for whatever views they have on this issue, or on wanting to find nuance.

 

I am done though. I have been basically done with Starmer since the EU U-turn and he just keeps failing, over and over and over. He is now rivalling Farage in my eyes as he puts the same effort into wooing reform voters, and has the same disdain for urban Labour voters.

 

Brace yourselves for chlorochicken, hatespeech, and a crackdown on schemes to support minorities, because they're all part of the trade deal demand too. The US also wants us to revisit the abortion debate, and while I cant quite believe that would happen yet, I am going to be really, really fucking interested in who the TERFs are turning to for support if it does.

[Rayvin 6428]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

Mate, unless they’re getting turfed out their homes or getting sacked they’ll bury their heads in the sand. Maybe it does have to get worse for people to actually wake up. But look at the mess of the last government and how long it took to remove them. Not to mention Farage and co soaring in the polls and having absolved themselves of the Brexit fiasco by changing their name. I genuinely reckon most people wouldn’t know Reform used to be the Brexit party. And a far chunk of those that did know would buy ‘the wrong kind of Brexit’ bollocks. Anyway, fuck this shit (for now), it’s too depressing 

 

I am incredibly angry about this so forgive me for screaming into the void, I may revisit some of this in days to come but honestly... what hope is there? Seriously, we can't win even when we win. When do we get someone with the fucking backbone required to lead, instead of being thrown around like a leaf in a hurricane.

[Craig 7299]

10 minutes ago, Alex said:

It’s a really difficult situation the government are in. And Gemmill is correct that things can get massively worse. The trans issue is a huge trap (especially after the recent ruling) that most of the press are desperate for Starmer to fall into. And it’s a mental situation in general with regards to all forms of media now. The algorithms that permeate and influence the views of so many people. And that’s not me trying to make a wholesale defence of this government. It’s just everything is so polarised there’s no room for any nuance even before you take into account the right wing bias controlling (or at least having most influence over) the narrative. And I also say this without meaning I don’t care about trans rights this is something that, even in far more normal times, most people should not care that deeply about. And by that I mean it doesn’t fucking impact their lives at all beyond them being told it does for the vast majority. But everything’s either woke or anti-woke now. 

Bravo mate 👏

 

You make a very valid point. People are caring deeply about this on both sides when they have no direct impact. It’s hugely polarised and painful for people on both sides of the argument. 

[spongebob toonpants 4477]

I fucking detest Kier Starmer. 

 

I had ridiculously low expectations of him, and he's managed to be much much worse that I could ever have imagined 

 

 

[Rayvin 6428]

7 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I fucking detest Kier Starmer. 

 

I had ridiculously low expectations of him, and he's managed to be much much worse that I could ever have imagined 

 

 

 

Everything we feared.

[ewerk 34034]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

 The trans issue is a huge trap

[GrahamTaylor5 1217]

I think Kier Starmer is in a very difficult position.

 

No matter what the outcome here was, it is going to cause a lot of hurt and upset.

 

Some of the posts state about the evidence of increased attacks. I don't think that is about statistics. It is about how something makes someone feel. 

 

No matter what the outcome here, it is going to hurt a lot of feelings. 

 

Let trans women into bathrooms with biological women (if I have got the terminology wrong, it is a genuine mistake not a deliberate affront) then some biological women will feel uncomfortable and feel their right to a set space is violated. If you do not let trans women into bathrooms with biological women then they feel that their right to a set space is violated. 

 

I think people some people will have very strong views in both directions and then there is people who don't really have a viewpoint on it (I fall into this camp).

 

In term of Starmer's approach on this, I feel this is one of the more reasonable ones to not be as clear on. It is such a hard one to call as it is all based on how people feel as a opposed to evidence.

 

Some of the other decisions e.g. Brexit are stupid as there is clear data behind it. What people think today is vastly different to what people will feel in two years time. 

 

[ewerk 34034]

2 hours ago, Craig said:

 

We need to be careful not to understate the magnitude of this ruling on both sides - undoubtedly one of the most divisive legal calls in our lifetime.  

I don’t see the decision itself as divisive. This isn’t America where the judiciary is politicised, the Supreme Court has in no way declared that they agreed with the law, they just clarified how the current law should be interpreted.

 

If Starmer disagrees with the current law then he could change it in the morning. But he won’t because he has no convictions and balls the size of peanuts. If he had this view for years then I’d disagree with him but at least he’d have a strongly held view. Turns out he’s as much of a wet blanket as he initially appeared.

[Rayvin 6428]

17 minutes ago, GrahamTaylor5 said:

I think Kier Starmer is in a very difficult position.

 

No matter what the outcome here was, it is going to cause a lot of hurt and upset.

 

Some of the posts state about the evidence of increased attacks. I don't think that is about statistics. It is about how something makes someone feel. 

 

No matter what the outcome here, it is going to hurt a lot of feelings. 

 

Let trans women into bathrooms with biological women (if I have got the terminology wrong, it is a genuine mistake not a deliberate affront) then some biological women will feel uncomfortable and feel their right to a set space is violated. If you do not let trans women into bathrooms with biological women then they feel that their right to a set space is violated. 

 

I think people some people will have very strong views in both directions and then there is people who don't really have a viewpoint on it (I fall into this camp).

 

In term of Starmer's approach on this, I feel this is one of the more reasonable ones to not be as clear on. It is such a hard one to call as it is all based on how people feel as a opposed to evidence.

 

Some of the other decisions e.g. Brexit are stupid as there is clear data behind it. What people think today is vastly different to what people will feel in two years time. 

 

 

What about the actual lack of safety that trans women will now face in men's bathrooms, as opposed to the fictional lack of safety that cis-women had in theirs? Less important than people's feelings?

 

People feel also afraid that white people are being replaced, that Muslims are trying to stealth conquer the UK, that the government is run by paedophiles, that lizard people walk amongst us, chemtrails, vaccines, 5G, and so on.

 

We aren't reacting to any of those because there is no evidence of them being true. Same as trans women attacking cis women in bathrooms has no evidence. It is instead an issue that has been politicised by the right because it intensifies their support in their base. Meanwhile it is kryptonite to someone like Starmer who is trying to seduce right wingers and assuming he can hold onto the left just because we're all afraid of the right.

 

Starmer does not fucking care about this issue either way, I guarantee it. His statement is a decision to generate political capital at the expense of a vulnerable group in society. That's all it is. And it is pathetic.

 

We are now being led not by evidence, not by reality, but by blind fucking fear. It will not stop here.

[ewerk 34034]

11 minutes ago, GrahamTaylor5 said:

I don't think that is about statistics. It is about how something makes someone feel. 

20% of the country today feel very uncomfortable seeing two men kissing yet we legalised it nearly 60 years ago. What you call feelings I call prejudices.

 

Personally I think most of the country wouldn’t be arsed about it. Referendum anyone?

[GrahamTaylor5 1217]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

What about the actual lack of safety that trans women will now face in men's bathrooms, as opposed to the fictional lack of safety that women had in theirs? Less important than people's feelings?

 

People feel also afraid that white people are being replaced, that Muslims are trying to stealth conquer the UK, that the government is run by paedophiles, that lizard people walk amongst us, chemtrails, vaccines, 5G, and so on.

 

We aren't reacting to any of those because there is no evidence of them being true. Same as trans women attacking cis women in bathrooms has no evidence. It is instead an issue that has been politicised by the right because it intensifies their support in their base. Meanwhile it is kryptonite to someone like Starmer who is trying to seduce right wingers and assuming he can hold onto the left just because we're all afraid of the right.

 

Starmer does not fucking care about this issue either way, I guarantee it. His statement is a decision to generate political capital at the expense of a vulnerable group in society. That's all it is. And it is pathetic.

 

We are now being led not by evidence, not be reality, but by blind fucking fear. It will not stop here.

This is a genuine question. Is there statistics to show that tans women are unsafe in male toilets or that this is an area where they would be more likely to be attacked?

 

I am not trying to push the other side of the argument but I did a quick search and I couldn't find anything. I am genuinely wanting to be more informed on this area rather than pushing back on you.

[ewerk 34034]

1 minute ago, GrahamTaylor5 said:

This is a genuine question. Is there statistics to show that tans women are unsafe in male toilets or that this is an area where they would be more likely to be attacked?

 

I am not trying to push the other side of the argument but I did a quick search and I couldn't find anything. I am genuinely wanting to be more informed on this area rather than pushing back on you.

I’ve got no statistics but put yourself in the shoes of a trans woman going to the gym and having to use the male showers. 

[GrahamTaylor5 1217]

4 minutes ago, ewerk said:

20% of the country today feel very uncomfortable seeing two men kissing yet we legalised it nearly 60 years ago. What you call feelings I call prejudices.

 

Personally I think most of the country wouldn’t be arsed about it. Referendum anyone?

I was informed of a man who is in a same sex relationship receiving the most vile abuse, at his place of work, that I have heard of. 

 

I don't understand this view. I am also shocked to see it at 20%. On the other hand, I feel uncomfortable when I see most people kissing. I do get that what not the question in the survey. 

[GrahamTaylor5 1217]

Just now, ewerk said:

I’ve got no statistics but put yourself in the shoes of a trans woman going to the gym and having to use the male showers. 

I 100% agree, I don't think that this is right.

 

I do think that there should be safe spaces where people can shower or use the toilet. Like the toilets in France. 

 

My view on this is not based on the trans debate. I think this is something that a lot of people would benefit from. People who have had horrendous events in their life or people who just do not feel comfortable/ safe in a shared space.

 

I don't feel overly comfortable in communal changing rooms. 

 

I once had a bloke, who I turned out to know, accidentally walk in on me when I was using the shower at a gym. We laughed it off as it was a genuine mistake but I image that this would be traumatising from someone who had a previous experience.

 

I can imagine that if it had happened to a trans women then the genuine mistake would definitely not appear that way and could have destroyed his life. 

[Rayvin 6428]

18 minutes ago, GrahamTaylor5 said:

This is a genuine question. Is there statistics to show that tans women are unsafe in male toilets or that this is an area where they would be more likely to be attacked?

 

I am not trying to push the other side of the argument but I did a quick search and I couldn't find anything. I am genuinely wanting to be more informed on this area rather than pushing back on you.

 

We have statistics that say trans women suffer violence from cis men at a rate 4 times higher than cis women do. We don't have anything on bathrooms that I can see, though I did find a reddit thread asking trans people this exact thing and them all replying that men's rooms were less safe/they'd been attacked/they don't bother to use public restrooms anymore full stop because they're not welcome anywhere. The difference is that we have been monitoring trans women in women's bathrooms for violence and have found nothing. For a decade, in Ireland's case.  We haven't been monitoring trans women in men's bathrooms, presumably because they weren't using them if they passed as women.

 

As a separate thing, apparently the high court ruling said that as well as trans women not being allowed in women's bathrooms, trans men aren't either

 

So neither trans men or women have any guaranteed right to the use of public toilets as we stand, because both cis genders can ban them from their own. Come on man, this shit is indefensible. This is second class citizen levels of erasure.

[GrahamTaylor5 1217]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

We have statistics that say trans women suffer violence from cis men at a rate 4 times higher than women do. 

I cannot get past this. 

 

I do not get how people can be filled with this much hate. 

 

As much as I would like to be more informed on this area, I feel this is actually something that, I am ashamed to admit, I do not actually want to know. 

 

I appreciate the replies, thank you 

[Rayvin 6428]

3 minutes ago, GrahamTaylor5 said:

I cannot get past this. 

 

I do not get how people can be filled with this much hate. 

 

As much as I would like to be more informed on this area, I feel this is actually something that, I am ashamed to admit, I do not actually want to know. 

 

I appreciate the replies, thank you 

 

For what its worth your cubicle thing would be an easy sell for me. Its expensive though and there's only a few trans lives on the line, so it won't happen.

[Meenzer 16762]

4 hours ago, Rayvin said:

This would be what we might call a slippery slope. A thin end of the wedge. "First they came for the trans people, but I said nothing, for I was not trans.." etc.

 

I mean...

 

[Monkeys Fist 46193]

12 hours ago, Alex said:

And I also say this without meaning I don’t care about trans rights this is something that, even in far more normal times, most people should not care that deeply about. And by that I mean it doesn’t fucking impact their lives at all beyond them being told it does for the vast majority. But everything’s either woke or anti-woke now. 

I’ve thought this since the whole debate began. 
It’s such a vanishingly small proportion of the population, yet it’s been front page news for several years now. 
It’s much like immigration tbh- as you point out, it’s a thing that will have very little direct impact on the vast majority of people, so I can’t fathom why so many people have such strong feelings about it ( I know why- because their media of choice tells them it matters). 
 

Meanwhile, worker rights have been decimated, the NHS is on its last legs, and I’m about to apply for a second mortgage to buy next weeks shopping and nobody seems to give a fuck. 
 

 

[ewerk 34034]

10 hours ago, Meenzer said:

 

I mean...

 

 

Now sure seems like a good time to publish a league table of which nationality is doing the most raping.