Politics

[Gemmill 51036]

 

 

[Christmas Tree 5199]

4 hours ago, Rayvin said:

Went and checked the Guardian for how these cuts (and now further tax rises) are being reported - absolute outrage from everyone in sight. No worries though, it's not aimed at winning over the enemy middle class lefties. It's aimed at winning over Reform voting morons...! Onwards to the Daily Mail then!

 

Wait... there's nothing here? Top story about a submarine accident, something about Prince Harry, couple of things about Trump... celebrity tat..

 

Nothing on Labour and these policies. How surprising. It's almost like the people they're trying to win over are disingenuous and don't give a fuck. Weird.

 

Must have your leftie filter enabled  

 

 

[Andrew 5298]

10 hours ago, Gemmill said:

Ah I don't use my work laptop, this is all on my phone.

 

Haven't posted on TT from my work computer in about 15 years. That way, danger lies. 

Aye I havent since my boss (fortunately also a newcastle fan) spotted a tab called "mike ashley football cunt" in my browser

 

 

[Ayatollah Hermione 14774]

Imagine having the majority that this lot have and gleefully using it to actively ruin the lives of the worse off in the country. If we thought that the Tories had committed political suicide, I’d hate to know what this is. 
 

The kind of shit that drags people to either side of the politics divide and I’d absolutely bet my life on it that more people head further right 

[Holden McGroin 7740]

1 hour ago, Ayatollah Hermione said:

Imagine having the majority that this lot have and gleefully using it to actively ruin the lives of the worse off in the country. If we thought that the Tories had committed political suicide, I’d hate to know what this is. 
 

The kind of shit that drags people to either side of the politics divide and I’d absolutely bet my life on it that more people head further right 

Aye. If we had a snap election tomorrow, who would you vote for?

 

I’d have to check out what the Lib Dem’s are upto but Reform have the appeal and backing to win comfortably.

Edited Friday at 08:05 by Holden McGroin

[Rayvin 6100]

12 hours ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

Must have your leftie filter enabled  

 

 

 

That looks like the print edition, it was nowhere to be seen on the online one. I'm also going to add, although you'll know this, that they've made the focus on everything other than the cuts which she has, in the small print, been 'forced' to do. It's about tax rises and the economy failing to kick on. In other words it's all selectively critical and ignoring the things that they should be happy about. This supports the what I said - pandering to these people is pointless, none of them actually care about reality.

[Renton 24153]

4 minutes ago, Holden McGroin said:

Aye. If we had a snap election tomorrow, who would you vote for?

 

I’d have to check out what the Lib Dem’s are upto but Reform have the appeal and backing to win comfortably.

 

Labour. They've been in power less than a year against a backdrop of extreme economic turmoil with Trump in power. They need a chance imo. The cuts are yet to take effect and their impact is not clear. Some of the stuff, like the tweet I posted about school meals being cut, aren't true. What's the alternative? Presuming you rule out the Tories and Reform, you have the Greens and the LDs. Neither party has ever had to handle the reality of governance. It's fine for Davies to act the fool in opposition and appease whatever group he's talking to at the time, but he's never been confronted with the reality of the situation we are in and the difficult trade offs there are in everything. He's a nimby when it suits and at the same time pro-growth without saying how. As for the Greens, their policies are batshit. If you want us to undertake unilateral nuclear disarmament at this time, fill your boots. 

 

I do not like what Labour are doing. But I think three things are relevant here. First, we are in a fucking mess caused by the previous administrations intransigence over the last 14 years. It's not getting fixed overnight. Second, whatever you might think, there is a qualitative difference between Labour and the Tories. Labour's cuts are borne of necessity, not ideology. I know many people serving under Labour and I am convinced their intentions are good, even if you can't justify their actions. Finally, it's easy to snipe by the side-lines. But there is very little discussion about what the realistic alternatives are. One idea might be getting closer to the EU. I think this is probably happening under the radar, but you can't wish away the last 10 years as if nothing has happened. Then what? How do you satisfy the bond markets who de facto set our interest rates? It's a simple fact that Truss cost me thousands of pounds I couldn't afford, if that happens again now I'm fucked, I'd default on my mortgage. Then I guess you can say fuck the markets, fuck capitalism. To be replaced by what exactly? We are a medium sized country surrounded by superpowers, we are not in control of our destinies. People need to be careful what they wish for, as been proven time and time again. 

[Rayvin 6100]

 

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Labour. They've been in power less than a year against a backdrop of extreme economic turmoil with Trump in power. They need a chance imo. The cuts are yet to take effect and their impact is not clear. Some of the stuff, like the tweet I posted about school meals being cut, aren't true. What's the alternative? Presuming you rule out the Tories and Reform, you have the Greens and the LDs. Neither party has ever had to handle the reality of governance. It's fine for Davies to act the fool in opposition and appease whatever group he's talking to at the time, but he's never been confronted with the reality of the situation we are in and the difficult trade offs there are in everything. He's a nimby when it suits and at the same time pro-growth without saying how. As for the Greens, their policies are batshit. If you want us to undertake unilateral nuclear disarmament at this time, fill your boots. 

 

I do not like what Labour are doing. But I think three things are relevant here. First, we are in a fucking mess caused by the previous administrations intransigence over the last 14 years. It's not getting fixed overnight. Second, whatever you might think, there is a qualitative difference between Labour and the Tories. Labour's cuts are borne of necessity, not ideology. I know many people serving under Labour and I am convinced their intentions are good, even if you can't justify their actions. Finally, it's easy to snipe by the side-lines. But there is very little discussion about what the realistic alternatives are. One idea might be getting closer to the EU. I think this is probably happening under the radar, but you can't wish away the last 10 years as if nothing has happened. Then what? How do you satisfy the bond markets who de facto set our interest rates? It's a simple fact that Truss cost me thousands of pounds I couldn't afford, if that happens again now I'm fucked, I'd default on my mortgage. Then I guess you can say fuck the markets, fuck capitalism. To be replaced by what exactly? We are a medium sized country surrounded by superpowers, we are not in control of our destinies. People need to be careful what they wish for, as been proven time and time again. 

 

Also it's year one, if they have to do 'bad stuff' now is the time to be doing it. There's a lot of bad stuff, but better now than nearer the next election.

 

I don't think there really are any other options out there, which is what is so depressing about this.

[ewerk 33593]

This is an interesting take on the OBR. Who is Reeves trying to satisfy though? The OBR or the markets?

 

[Howmanheyman 37054]

https://northeastbylines.co.uk/news/politics/the-uk-democide-of-the-disabled/

 

 

 

[Holden McGroin 7740]

54 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Labour. They've been in power less than a year against a backdrop of extreme economic turmoil with Trump in power. They need a chance imo. The cuts are yet to take effect and their impact is not clear. Some of the stuff, like the tweet I posted about school meals being cut, aren't true. What's the alternative? Presuming you rule out the Tories and Reform, you have the Greens and the LDs. Neither party has ever had to handle the reality of governance. It's fine for Davies to act the fool in opposition and appease whatever group he's talking to at the time, but he's never been confronted with the reality of the situation we are in and the difficult trade offs there are in everything. He's a nimby when it suits and at the same time pro-growth without saying how. As for the Greens, their policies are batshit. If you want us to undertake unilateral nuclear disarmament at this time, fill your boots. 

 

I do not like what Labour are doing. But I think three things are relevant here. First, we are in a fucking mess caused by the previous administrations intransigence over the last 14 years. It's not getting fixed overnight. Second, whatever you might think, there is a qualitative difference between Labour and the Tories. Labour's cuts are borne of necessity, not ideology. I know many people serving under Labour and I am convinced their intentions are good, even if you can't justify their actions. Finally, it's easy to snipe by the side-lines. But there is very little discussion about what the realistic alternatives are. One idea might be getting closer to the EU. I think this is probably happening under the radar, but you can't wish away the last 10 years as if nothing has happened. Then what? How do you satisfy the bond markets who de facto set our interest rates? It's a simple fact that Truss cost me thousands of pounds I couldn't afford, if that happens again now I'm fucked, I'd default on my mortgage. Then I guess you can say fuck the markets, fuck capitalism. To be replaced by what exactly? We are a medium sized country surrounded by superpowers, we are not in control of our destinies. People need to be careful what they wish for, as been proven time and time again. 

 

You're probably right and it's still early days but the signs aren't great and they are just pretty much following Tory policy. As far as I can see they have not impressed any demographic in the UK. They should be at least making massive noise about taxing the rich/tax dodging corporations etc - even if its just for PR, but they are just digging themselves in a hole for which they might never be able to get out.

 

LDs had a taste when joining the coalition, but I agree on that point as well. You could counter that Reform have even less but then they are likely to be our new gov.

Edited Friday at 09:24 by Holden McGroin

[Renton 24153]

3 minutes ago, Holden McGroin said:

hey should be at least making massive noise about taxing the rich/tax dodging corporations etc

 

You say this, but, haven't they?

• Non-Domiciled Tax Status Abolition.
• Capital Gains Tax Increase.
• Inheritance Tax Expansion.
• Rich farmers taken into inheritance tax.
• Stamp Duty on Second Homes.
• VAT on private schools. 

All of these designed to hit the wealthy, some of which generated huge negative headlines. Would the tories have done this? The Lib Dems? I doubt it. 

 

[Holden McGroin 7740]

Possibly not.  It's clearly not enough if they are hitting the poor/disabled as well though. They've just about alienated every demographic. 

 

Im trying to keep level headed and see if we are better off in ~4 years time before I decide who to vote for. The options are parse right now.

[Renton 24153]

5 minutes ago, Holden McGroin said:

Possibly not.  It's clearly not enough if they are hitting the poor/disabled as well though. They've just about alienated every demographic. 

 

Im trying to keep level headed and see if we are better off in ~4 years time before I decide who to vote for. The options are parse right now.

 

Absolutely fair enough. 

1 hour ago, ewerk said:

This is an interesting take on the OBR. Who is Reeves trying to satisfy though? The OBR or the markets?

 

 

I think the OBR is a good thing, but it is possible they need re-evaluate benefits more clearly. To use HS2 as an example (yes), the long-term benefits were never really fully taken into account, the full HS2 implementation would have been a huge economic boost, but would have been realised long after the government of the day. The real problem therefore isn't even politicians, it's the political system. Everything is adversarial and short-term. Major policies and big infrastructure projects take longer to accrue benefits than the electoral system allows for, and this is fuelled by a reactive and ignorant media.  Net zero being another one. 

[Gemmill 51036]

 

Given the standard of the comms to date, this doesn't seem like the worst news. 

[Ayatollah Hermione 14774]

You’re off your fucking head if you think this lot will ever go further left. I’m sorry, like. Starmer is a proven shyster who backtracks on everything he says. If there was an election tomorrow, I’d wipe my arse with the paper 

[Renton 24153]

44 minutes ago, Ayatollah Hermione said:

You’re off your fucking head if you think this lot will ever go further left. I’m sorry, like. Starmer is a proven shyster who backtracks on everything he says. If there was an election tomorrow, I’d wipe my arse with the paper 

 

What manifesto pledge has he backtracked on? I think the issue is he isn't backtracking on his pledges when unfortunately tax rises for working people are needed. So without headroom there he's gone for cuts which weren't in the manifesto. 

But I've just listed six separate progressive examples of taxation Labour has introduced which other parties wouldn't, all conveniently ignored. There are other positive things too, regarding changes to planning etc, but there's always someone you'll piss off. The welfare situation is shite, I agree, but Labour are still the most progressive and fair of the remotely feasible parties imo. Or maybe Farage or Badenoch will do a better job?  

[spongebob toonpants 4448]

They're are doing nothing to help the worst off while allowing the massive profit taking to go unchecked. They are telling the same lies as the Tories just in a slightly less toxic way

The country needs emergency surgery.

There is no point to what Labour are doing, they ae functionally just a less inept and corrupt Tory party at the moment, which is not enough

[Rayvin 6100]

3 hours ago, spongebob toonpants said:

They're are doing nothing to help the worst off while allowing the massive profit taking to go unchecked. They are telling the same lies as the Tories just in a slightly less toxic way

The country needs emergency surgery.

There is no point to what Labour are doing, they ae functionally just a less inept and corrupt Tory party at the moment, which is not enough

 

Speaking as someone who has been right there with you on this front for years and who has complete respect for the view, and agreement in the need... where on earth do you see that coming from? I look at the current landscape and there's just nothing there. For all people can take considerable issue with Momentum and how it went in the end, it was the last genuinely reformative movement that didn't come from the right, and it was crushed by the centre, We were defeated in full. I see nothing anywhere that suggests anyone is remotely prepared to pick up the pieces of that.

 

Again - I am completely with you, but for all my attempts to justify a protest vote against Labour last time out, the reality is that all I achieved was voting for a party (SNP) that honestly aren't a million miles better anyway - and which felt in the end like a very weak gesture that had no point or merit to it. I wish now I'd stuck to just spoiling the ballot - equally as pointless, but more cathartic.

 

The sort of shift we need is probably one that spans borders tbh. It's not going to be a UK only event.

[Renton 24153]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

The sort of shift we need is probably one that spans borders tbh

 

Not just UK borders, or even European ones. What you want is a global alternative to neoliberalism. And presumably not communism. That's the problem. I'd like it too. But you can only play in the system you're in with the hand you're dealt. Probably the only country that could change things positively is the US, that's working out well. 

[Christmas Tree 5199]

The only people running the country are the markets. 

[Rayvin 6100]

They might be driving it, but markets aren't actually in active control of anything. They're just dogs chasing cars. Essentially what you mean is, no one is running the country and the entire system is in anarchy.

[Christmas Tree 5199]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

They might be driving it, but markets aren't actually in active control of anything. They're just dogs chasing cars. Essentially what you mean is, no one is running the country and the entire system is in anarchy.

 

What I mean is markets lay out the fiscal landscape that the government can play in and if they veer off course they hit them hard (See Truss). 

[Rayvin 6100]

1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said:

 

What I mean is markets lay out the fiscal landscape that the government can play in and if they veer off course they hit them hard (See Truss). 

 

Yes, I get your point but I still think that gives them a little too much power versus reality. The markets need society to be stable as much as governments need the markets to be. If society is in chaos because the government is failing, the markets are going to have a bad time. It's all interdependent IMO. Which was, I might add, my great belief in assuring world peace for the past years. The fact that everyone's markets were interdependent.

 

All of which has now been turned on its head by Trump of course who doesn't give a flying fuck about markets from what we've seen so far. Shows what I know.

[RobinRobin 12639]