Politics

[spongebob toonpants 4003]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

Looks like the right wing plan is working. They keep sniping away from the sidelines with this anti-Starmer narrative, and the left wing pick it up and back them up for their own reasons.

Yeah this is bollocks. It's not a right wing narrative to think he should stand up to the press. Its not a right wing narrative to think this along with leaving the 2 child cap, raising bus fares, and losing the winter fuel allowance is terrible politics.

Even the stuff I agree with like the inheritance tax on farms they've framed in such an amateurish way its allowed the press to attack

Its not a right wing narrative to call out his cowardice in refusing to be honest about Brexit.

I'm desperate for Labour to succeed. We need him to be better, for them to have any chance of turning this shit show round. If they dont christ knows what will happen at the next election

He's got a fucking massive majority, he needs to use it

I just don't get this attitude that any criticism isn't allowed and is playing to a right-wing narrative, if anyone is enabling a right wing narrative its him

 

 

[Renton 21666]

1 minute ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Yeah this is bollocks. It's not a right wing narrative to think he should stand up to the press. Its not a right wing narrative to think this along with leaving the 2 child cap, raising bus fares, and losing the winter fuel allowance is terrible politics.

Even the stuff I agree with like the inheritance tax on farms they've framed in such an amateurish way its allowed the press to attack

Its not a right wing narrative to call out his cowardice in refusing to be honest about Brexit.

I'm desperate for Labour to succeed. We need him to be better, for them to have any chance of turning this shit show round. If they dont christ knows what will happen at the next election

He's got a fucking massive majority, he needs to use it

I just don't get this attitude that any criticism isn't allowed and is playing to a right-wing narrative, if anyone is enabling a right wing narrative its him

 

 

 

Of course criticism is allowed. And yes the Labour comms have been awful, probably rusty after 15 years out of power (although if they had better comms with an Alistair Campbell type figure, well, we know how that would go down). But the agenda against Starmer's government - from both directions - is transparently obvious to me. 

Uising this case as an example, he can't win. NJS has already implied it is a deliberate plot from Starmer to purge the government of left leaning politicians. It's just fucking ridiculous.

Of the issues listed, I have most sympathy for the 2 child cap on benefits, which is just wrong. But Labour were pretty clear on saying that before the elction, they weren't going to remove it on affordability issues. If they did it now, guess what, they will be attacked for not staying within their manifesto. Hopefully it will come at a later date. 

As for pensioners, there will be some genuine losers there. But the triple cap means they will still be better off. As for Bexit, well, if they get this much shit over Louise Haigh, what do you think will happen if he overtly moves towards the single market? Our politics are just not mature enough to handle it. As I've said countless time, the government need time and space, they're owed that much. 

[NJS 4391]

1 hour ago, Gemmill said:

 

Would have been easier to not appoint them to his cabinet if that was what was going on (it's not what's going on). 

I've just read she was the one who called out P&O ferries - makes sense now - she marked her own card. 

[Gemmill 45024]

Another case cracked. 

[spongebob toonpants 4003]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Of course criticism is allowed. And yes the Labour comms have been awful, probably rusty after 15 years out of power (although if they had better comms with an Alistair Campbell type figure, well, we know how that would go down). But the agenda against Starmer's government - from both directions - is transparently obvious to me. 

Uising this case as an example, he can't win. NJS has already implied it is a deliberate plot from Starmer to purge the government of left leaning politicians. It's just fucking ridiculous.

Of the issues listed, I have most sympathy for the 2 child cap on benefits, which is just wrong. But Labour were pretty clear on saying that before the elction, they weren't going to remove it on affordability issues. If they did it now, guess what, they will be attacked for not staying within their manifesto. Hopefully it will come at a later date. 

As for pensioners, there will be some genuine losers there. But the triple cap means they will still be better off. As for Bexit, well, if they get this much shit over Louise Haigh, what do you think will happen if he overtly moves towards the single market? Our politics are just not mature enough to handle it. As I've said countless time, the government need time and space, they're owed that much. 

Again I don't have an agenda against the govt, Im desperate for them to succeed because the alternative is so much worse

What I say on this message board makes fuck all difference to anyone. The press is going to press whatever he does, so he needs to do better, be braver and start doing stuff that will give him a chance at the next election.

[Renton 21666]

9 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Again I don't have an agenda against the govt, Im desperate for them to succeed because the alternative is so much worse

What I say on this message board makes fuck all difference to anyone. The press is going to press whatever he does, so he needs to do better, be braver and start doing stuff that will give him a chance at the next election.

 

Fair enough. Given the next GE is probably further away tyhan the next US GE (if that happens), then I think the plan of getting all the shit stuff out at the start and relying on some form of economic recovery is reasonable. If it doesn't work, well, we are really fucked anyway I guess. I'd love to ignore the media (social and main stream) but it's hard to completely ignore. And I'm bored and want an argument. 

[Gemmill 45024]

Bridget might have to go for not washing her hands after a piss. 

[Howmanheyman 33303]

25 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Bridget might have to go for not washing her hands after a piss. 

 

They'll have her for sports washing if they find out who she supports? 

 

"Does the right honourable member of the opposition agree with me that that the right honourable member for Sunderland is guilty of sportswashing for Saudi Arabia and guilty of not hating the.....[reads his notes]...... Mags anaarl?"

[Gemmill 45024]

Assisted Dying Bill has passed. Majority of 55.

 

Kim Leadbeater has moved a motion to get the ball rolling with Edward Leigh.

[Rayvin 5232]

I think the main issue with Starmer is exactly what SBTP says, he's a coward. He's got a massive majority and yet acts as if there's only one seat in it. Fuck the press, fuck the Tories - who knows what the world looks like in 5 years ffs. There's no point worrying about that now, nothing they're doing at this point will be remembered by anyone by the time the next GE comes along.

 

We need an Obama or a Blair, and instead we've got a Chamberlain - which would be understandable if it was actually working. But it's not. He's being eviscerated all over the place, looks weak to all sides.  Starmer feels like a man who doesn't trust himself - he's abandoned a great many things he believed in, which should have formed the strong foundations he went into office with. He's someone who reacts to things, rather than sets his own agenda. Doesn't have the balls to impose himself.  Let's hope he's just keeping the seat warm for someone better...

[Dr Gloom 21974]

30 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I think the main issue with Starmer is exactly what SBTP says, he's a coward. He's got a massive majority and yet acts as if there's only one seat in it. Fuck the press, fuck the Tories - who knows what the world looks like in 5 years ffs. There's no point worrying about that now, nothing they're doing at this point will be remembered by anyone by the time the next GE comes along.

 

We need an Obama or a Blair, and instead we've got a Chamberlain - which would be understandable if it was actually working. But it's not. He's being eviscerated all over the place, looks weak to all sides.  Starmer feels like a man who doesn't trust himself - he's abandoned a great many things he believed in, which should have formed the strong foundations he went into office with. He's someone who reacts to things, rather than sets his own agenda. Doesn't have the balls to impose himself.  Let's hope he's just keeping the seat warm for someone better...

The Labour party’s own Gareth Southgate  

[Renton 21666]

25 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I think the main issue with Starmer is exactly what SBTP says, he's a coward. He's got a massive majority and yet acts as if there's only one seat in it. Fuck the press, fuck the Tories - who knows what the world looks like in 5 years ffs. There's no point worrying about that now, nothing they're doing at this point will be remembered by anyone by the time the next GE comes along.

 

We need an Obama or a Blair, and instead we've got a Chamberlain - which would be understandable if it was actually working. But it's not. He's being eviscerated all over the place, looks weak to all sides.  Starmer feels like a man who doesn't trust himself - he's abandoned a great many things he believed in, which should have formed the strong foundations he went into office with. He's someone who reacts to things, rather than sets his own agenda. Doesn't have the balls to impose himself.  Let's hope he's just keeping the seat warm for someone better...

 

I don't think I could disagree more. He's getting shit from all sides, he isn't reacting, and he isn't changing his policies. Cutting WFA was obviously going to be unpopular, but he's stuck with it. Putting inheritance tax on farmers? No, he's not rowing back. Ditto employer NI. I can't think of any reversals he's made or even him going back on anything that was in the manifesto. Even on the Brexit issue, he's quietly getting along with our European allies fostering closer cooperation. It's inevitably going to be a slow process. 

I'll add that the comparison with Chamberlain seems not only unfair but baseless. In what way are his actions similar? 

[Rayvin 5232]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

I don't think I could disagree more. He's getting shit from all sides, he isn't reacting, and he isn't changing his policies. Cutting WFA was obviously going to be unpopular, but he's stuck with it. Putting inheritance tax on farmers? No, he's not rowing back. Ditto employer NI. I can't think of any reversals he's made or even him going back on anything that was in the manifesto. Even on the Brexit issue, he's quietly getting along with our European allies fostering closer cooperation. It's inevitably going to be a slow process. 

I'll add that the comparison with Chamberlain seems not only unfair but baseless. In what way are his actions similar? 

 

He's ceding ground to the far right philosophically. I acknowledge the disagreements elsewhere but I suppose I'm referring to his initial pledges.

[Dr Gloom 21974]

He’s an uninspiring leader. He needs to use these four years to improve people’s lives. Can he do that? Has he shown enough vision or ambition? Jury very much out 

[Renton 21666]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

He’s an uninspiring leader. He needs to use these four years to improve people’s lives. Can he do that? Has he shown enough vision or ambition? Jury very much out 

 

He's playing by the rules. He's technocratic. He's a bit grey. He's literally staying out the news and quietly governing.

I don't mind this. Better that than a useless bombastic popularist like Johnson. I'm more than happy for politics to take a back seat after the last few years. Unfortunately, with Trump and the rise of the right elsewhere, this isn't happening. 

[Rayvin 5232]

22 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

The Labour party’s own Gareth Southgate  

 

Think this is spot on actually. And I suppose some would argue that Southgate managed England exceptionally well and had them achieve more than anyone else in living memory. But then others look at his reign and think that we could have had so much more if he'd just trusted his players more and went for it. Kinda curious where @Renton would line up on that argument actually, wonder if it's a risk management style that separates people on this.

[Renton 21666]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

Think this is spot on actually. And I suppose some would argue that Southgate managed England exceptionally well and had them achieve more than anyone else in living memory. But then others look at his reign and think that we could have had so much more if he'd just trusted his players more and went for it. Kinda curious where @Renton would line up on that argument actually, wonder if it's a risk management style that separates people on this.

 

I'm not bothered about personalities. I do prefer normative politics. I trust professionals and experts. I distrust and usually dislike popularists. Some exceptions, Blair had a hint of popularism about him but importantly knew how to delegate and govern. Starmer is much less inspiring and is in much, much harder times both politically, economically, and security wise. Tough gig for anyone and possibly a doomed one. 

As for the Southgate analogy, who knows? Maybe England fans just over-rated the English players and he did as well as anyone could. Maybe we'll find out with Tuchel. 

[Renton 21666]

To add, if you want a precautionary tale about risk management, go no further than Truss. There are no easy solutions. 

[Rayvin 5232]

I mean, I don't particularly subscribe to the notion that Truss' plan was fit for purpose at even a theoretical level tbh.

 

I also trust professionals and experts for what it's worth, but having spent a lot of time around such educated people professionally, what is clear is that technocrats may be good at running things well, but not so much at running them towards any particular outcome. We go back to this need for vision. I'll take technocrats and responsible government all day long if there's some sort of direction we're moving in, and someone who can carry the rest of us with them. Starmer isn't that man.

[spongebob toonpants 4003]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

To add, if you want a precautionary tale about risk management, go no further than Truss. There are no easy solutions. 

See I think my problem with Srarmer is he isn't offering any solution. But I'll agree he will manage our decline more efficiently and with much less corruption

And to be glib there is an easy solution, rejoin the single market.

[Rayvin 5232]

Also to be honest, I'm not a fan of his as you know, but you have quite rightly pointed out that he is achieving some things in amidst all of this. For his own sake - not mine, not for my philosophical position - I wish he was shouting and screaming about it more. Labour have continuously let others set the agenda ever since Blair with the exception of Corbyn's doomed run. Like the guy or not, he was chasing his own plan. Starmer needs to be calling out and challenging the bullshit narratives, he cannot just rely on people taking notice of the fact that he's doing a decent job under difficult circumstances. Biden proves that much.

[Renton 21666]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I mean, I don't particularly subscribe to the notion that Truss' plan was fit for purpose at even a theoretical level tbh.

 

I also trust professionals and experts for what it's worth, but having spent a lot of time around such educated people professionally, what is clear is that technocrats may be good at running things well, but not so much at running them towards any particular outcome. We go back to this need for vision. I'll take technocrats and responsible government all day long if there's some sort of direction we're moving in, and someone who can carry the rest of us with them. Starmer isn't that man.

 

Who is? Let's say Burnham had the gig. The right wing press and social media would be equally if not more vitriolic and we'd have the same issues. It's they who set the narrative, and it works. 

Starmer's PM now, he is less than half a year into his tenure, and he is being crucified from all sides. Fortunately, I do think he's tough. He'll be PM for another 4 1/2 years save for some unforeseen catastrophe. Fuck knows what the World will look like by then though. With Starmer, I feel we have a safe pair of hands at the control. The main concerns I have now are external threats which as a small isolated country we aren't equipped to face. Not Starmer's fault, but I'd be happy for you to offer suggestions who could do a better job. 

[Renton 21666]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Also to be honest, I'm not a fan of his as you know, but you have quite rightly pointed out that he is achieving some things in amidst all of this. For his own sake - not mine, not for my philosophical position - I wish he was shouting and screaming about it more. Labour have continuously let others set the agenda ever since Blair with the exception of Corbyn's doomed run. Like the guy or not, he was chasing his own plan. Starmer needs to be calling out and challenging the bullshit narratives, he cannot just rely on people taking notice of the fact that he's doing a decent job under difficult circumstances. Biden proves that much.

 

I've mentioned Labour's comms are terrible. That is something I expect them to improve pretty quickly, certainly before next GE. 

[Renton 21666]

11 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

See I think my problem with Srarmer is he isn't offering any solution. But I'll agree he will manage our decline more efficiently and with much less corruption

And to be glib there is an easy solution, rejoin the single market.

 

Naive if you think that is an easy solution imo. Economically, it makes absolute sense. Politically, it would be disastrous. And this is still us in our echo chamber, has anyone asked the EU? 

It is just about possible Trump may push opinion towards Europe out of necessity. But Europe is now riddled with the far right itself. There was an interesting episode of the News Agents today that talked about France being close to a sovereign debt crisis. If that happens, with Le Pen hovering over the trigger, we may not want to be that close to the EU at the moment. 

Edited 12 hours ago by Renton

[spongebob toonpants 4003]

11 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Naive if you think that is an easy solution imo. Economically, it makes absolute sense. Politically, it would be disastrous. And this is still us in our echo chamber, has anyone asked the EU? 

It is just about possible Trump may push opinion towards Europe out of necessity. But Europe is now riddled with the far right itself. There was an interesting episode of the News Agents today that talked about France being close to a sovereign debt crisis. If that happens, with Le Pen hovering over the trigger, we may not want to be that close to the EU at the moment. 

I said it was glib. What's naive is thinking that anything other than radical action is going to prevent the downward path of the country.

And France for all its problems has a retirement age of 62/64 and pays a more than 50% higher state pension