Politics

[The Fish 10856]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

Maybe so but the world looks to the US for leadership and Biden dithered on the Israel/Gaza issue for months. He should have come right out from the start and called for a ceasefire like he knew he'd inevitably have to do at some point, and decided to wait for an incredible number of people to die before he'd do the right thing. Presumably in the hope that Israel would 'get it out of their system' with a few tens of thousands.

 

Let's not start becoming so pragmatic about these things that needing 30,000 dead before he will make the right decision is somehow considered to be acceptable.

 

That said, the Green Party are also allowed to make the odd comment, as politicians do, supporting an outcome that they wanted to see without endorsing literally everything the guy stood for.

 

You're an idealist Rayvin, I like that about you. 

 

We don't know how much pressure the US was putting on Israel behind the scenes, we don't know how hard Biden was fighting with the rest of the decision makers. We don't know anything really, just what plays out in public, which I'm sure you know is far from what's actually playing out in private.

[Rayvin 5219]

11 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

You're an idealist Rayvin, I like that about you. 

 

We don't know how much pressure the US was putting on Israel behind the scenes, we don't know how hard Biden was fighting with the rest of the decision makers. We don't know anything really, just what plays out in public, which I'm sure you know is far from what's actually playing out in private.

 

We don't, but we do know that whatever they were doing behind the scenes presumably didn't work, leading to them eventually having to publicly call for a ceasefire. I also think the US spent some time claiming that Israel was justified in defending itself iirc.

 

Either way though, it's not our job to justify what they do - it's our job to put forward our views so that they listen to us/represent those views. If people weren't complaining about the US failing to call out Israel, we might be a lot further away from a resolution than we are now. We aren't politicians, we don't have to balance the situation for them.

 

EDIT - let's also not forget that if it has been 'self evident' that Biden should step down, and that we were all mystified that he couldn't see this - why would we have any more faith in his judgement over Gaza? He seems to be someone who needs to be yelled at repeatedly to do the right thing.

[Renton 21615]

56 minutes ago, NJS said:

he is a genocide enabler

 

Strikes me as a bit crass that comment and from the same 6th form debating school as Jones. What's happened in Israel/Gaza has been horrific and I'm fairly certain Biden and his team dod not wish for any of it. Let's put the blame where it lies, with Netanyahu and the extremists in the Israeli and Hamas' governments. 

[Gemmill 44853]

Lads, the point is that she posted a respectful response to the bloke stepping down after 50 years of public service. That was all she was doing. It wasn't supposed to be a critique of his time as president, it was just a "this must have been a tough decision, thanks and bye". 

 

She then suffered the usual fucking Owen Jones inspired pile on because she didn't, in her respectful note, take the time to call the bloke a genocide enabler. 

 

It is plainly fucking ludicrous to think that she should have. It was a fucking courtesy note. 

 

Edited July 22 by Gemmill

[Alex 35077]

I honestly don’t think Jones cares that much about Palestine. And none of his rhetoric is remotely helpful, even if he does. I don’t really like the term but he’s the ultimate virtue signaller 

[NJS 4378]

20 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Strikes me as a bit crass that comment and from the same 6th form debating school as Jones. What's happened in Israel/Gaza has been horrific and I'm fairly certain Biden and his team dod not wish for any of it. Let's put the blame where it lies, with Netanyahu and the extremists in the Israeli and Hamas' governments. 

Supplied the bombs and made sure the UN and ICC responses were denigrated and minimised. They may not have wanted in but have done the square root of fuck all to minimise or end it. 

 

Putin bombs a school andl he's a despicable war criminal who should see justice. Netanyahu does it and "it's complicated". 

 

Give me sixth form any day. 

 

[Renton 21615]

17 minutes ago, NJS said:

Putin bombs a school andl he's a despicable war criminal who should see justice. Netanyahu does it and "it's complicated".

 

No. I haven't heard anyone justify Netanyahu destroying schools and hospitals. Netanyahu has done it. Putin has done it. Biden hasn't. Surely even a 6th former can see the difference. 

[NJS 4378]

11 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

No. I haven't heard anyone justify Netanyahu destroying schools and hospitals. Netanyahu has done it. Putin has done it. Biden hasn't. Surely even a 6th former can see the difference. 

With US arms and tacit approval. 

 

It's like Tywin Lannister and Gregor Clegane. 

[Renton 21615]

I've not seen any tacit approval. 

And yes, the relationship between the US and Israel is financially, military and culturally close and complex. Much like Starmer, Biden was damned if he did, and damned if he didn't. I bet there probably isn't a single US president in your lifetime who would meet your approval on this. 

[NJS 4378]

Probably not but funnily enough I did read somewhere that Reagan held them back on a few occasions. 

[ewerk 30598]

6 hours ago, Gemmill said:

 

 

She's getting ripped to bits by the newly far left Greens and Owen Jones for this very innocuous tweet. Welcome to what it's like to have that little prick infiltrate your party. 

 

 

Her post is now @Rayvin approved.  

 

 

[Alex 35077]

51 minutes ago, NJS said:

Probably not but funnily enough I did read somewhere that Reagan held them back on a few occasions. 

That probably came out well after he’d left office I’m guessing?
And I doubt he’d have done much holding back if there had been something like what Hamas did in September. Not a defence of Biden really but the circumstances are different and completely unique. I don’t really know how much Netanyahu would listen to anyone anyway. I know the US holds a lot of sway because of the foreign aid and arms they supply, etc. And it’s utterly fucking appalling what has happened and continues to happen in Gaza. But it still doesn’t make Biden analogous with Putin (or Netanyahu or the Hamas leadership) imo. And you have the added layers of complexity in the US and Israelis (I imagine) sharing intelligence etc. while the latter fights its proxy war with Iran. Which also has far wider implications (Russia, China and so on). It does feel like Biden could and should have done more in terms of a ceasefire, but as Fish says it’s hard to know exactly how much pressure is being applied in private. I think the ‘Genocidal Joe’ type of comments are ridiculously childish and simplistic as well. 

Edited July 22 by Alex

[Monkeys Fist 42418]

How do we think the Trumpinator would have handled this, given his extraordinary statesmanship? 

[Dazzler 9743]

18 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

How do we think the Trumpinator would have handled this, given his extraordinary statesmanship? 

Given his history of defending aggressors I think he would have been in the middle of a hamas / Netanyahu human centipede.

[Renton 21615]

58 minutes ago, Dazzler said:

Given his history of defending aggressors I think he would have been in the middle of a hamas / Netanyahu human centipede.

 

Imagine drawing the short straw and having your mouth stitched to Trump's arse? 

 

[Dazzler 9743]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

 

Imagine drawing the short straw and having your mouth stitched to Trump's arse? 

 

It would result in an immediate cease fire and long lasting, genuine peace in the Middle East. 
 

I think starmer should recommend it tbh

[Dr Gloom 21915]

17 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

Maybe so but the world looks to the US for leadership and Biden dithered on the Israel/Gaza issue for months. He should have come right out from the start and called for a ceasefire like he knew he'd inevitably have to do at some point, and decided to wait for an incredible number of people to die before he'd do the right thing. Presumably in the hope that Israel would 'get it out of their system' with a few tens of thousands.

 

Let's not start becoming so pragmatic about these things that needing 30,000 dead before he will make the right decision is somehow considered to be acceptable.

 

That said, the Green Party are also allowed to make the odd comment, as politicians do, supporting an outcome that they wanted to see without endorsing literally everything the guy stood for.

 

how could he call for a ceasefire from the start? hamas invaded israel and launced an unprecedented attack on israeli citizens. there isn't a country in the world that wouldn't have struck back. i don't see how the leader of the free world could have told israel to stop its offensive immediately after october 7th.

 

the prolonged attack on gaza has been absolutely horrendous. there needs to be a ceasefire but i honestly don't know how it happens - the coalition of nationalist nutters propping up netanyahu don't care how many innocent gazans are slaughtered until hamas is wiped out. 

[Craig 6682]

14 hours ago, Alex said:

That probably came out well after he’d left office I’m guessing?
And I doubt he’d have done much holding back if there had been something like what Hamas did in September. Not a defence of Biden really but the circumstances are different and completely unique. I don’t really know how much Netanyahu would listen to anyone anyway. I know the US holds a lot of sway because of the foreign aid and arms they supply, etc. And it’s utterly fucking appalling what has happened and continues to happen in Gaza. But it still doesn’t make Biden analogous with Putin (or Netanyahu or the Hamas leadership) imo. And you have the added layers of complexity in the US and Israelis (I imagine) sharing intelligence etc. while the latter fights its proxy war with Iran. Which also has far wider implications (Russia, China and so on). It does feel like Biden could and should have done more in terms of a ceasefire, but as Fish says it’s hard to know exactly how much pressure is being applied in private. I think the ‘Genocidal Joe’ type of comments are ridiculously childish and simplistic as well. 

 

I don't think it matters one hoot what Biden (or anyone else for that matter) said. Netanyahu was caught with his pants down and wanted retribution. 

I say very little about the Israel / Hamas situation because it is so very polarising.

 

[Rayvin 5219]

23 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

how could he call for a ceasefire from the start? hamas invaded israel and launced an unprecedented attack on israeli citizens. there isn't a country in the world that wouldn't have struck back. i don't see how the leader of the free world could have told israel to stop its offensive immediately after october 7th.

 

the prolonged attack on gaza has been absolutely horrendous. there needs to be a ceasefire but i honestly don't know how it happens - the coalition of nationalist nutters propping up netanyahu don't care how many innocent gazans are slaughtered until hamas is wiped out. 

 

My point is that if I could tell that we would reach a stage where everyone was calling for a ceasefire early on in developments, then US intelligence would be able to do so. And therefore all the time wasted in them finding the balls to call out clear reality (as if Israel was ever going to be able to eliminate Hamas without an actual genocide ffs) is a cost measured in human lives. Maybe Israel would have completely ignored it, as they are doing, but at least the US would have shown it had principled leadership when it came to the lives of innocents.

 

It is absolutely OK to call out the complete failure in western leadership on this. I mean we knew Brexit would be a fuck up. We called that out. This is the same principle. It's a humanitarian catastrophe that everyone knew it would be, and pretending that we can't call that shit out is doing no one any favours. We are better than this.

[The Fish 10856]

16 hours ago, NJS said:

With US arms and tacit approval. 

 

It's like Tywin Lannister and Gregor Clegane. 

It's not, like.

 

Lannister unleashed Clegane with the express instruction to sow terror. The US didn't instruct Israel to bomb hospitals or target civilians. Israel needs no instruction or encouragement to be the aggressor. And lets not paint Hamas as an innocent party in this either. They knew there would be retribution for their attack, and they have only slightly more regard for the Palestinian lives than the Israeli forces.

[wykikitoon 20129]

 

 

[The Fish 10856]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

My point is that if I could tell that we would reach a stage where everyone was calling for a ceasefire early on in developments, then US intelligence would be able to do so. And therefore all the time wasted in them finding the balls to call out clear reality (as if Israel was ever going to be able to eliminate Hamas without an actual genocide ffs) is a cost measured in human lives. Maybe Israel would have completely ignored it, as they are doing, but at least the US would have shown it had principled leadership when it came to the lives of innocents.

 

It is absolutely OK to call out the complete failure in western leadership on this. I mean we knew Brexit would be a fuck up. We called that out. This is the same principle. It's a humanitarian catastrophe that everyone knew it would be, and pretending that we can't call that shit out is doing no one any favours. We are better than this.

 

I don't think you can compare genocide with Brexit.  Even just as a "thing rational people don't want". 

 

I mean, when is the right time for the sitting President to speak out against one of it's closest international allies, especially one which exists in an area where the US has very few friends. I don't think us calling out the barbarism is the same as the US President doing it at all. I mean, look how long it took the international community to speak out against it? And they don't all have as much invested in a strong Israel as the States do. 

 

It's too unrealistic to expect Joe Biden (or any leader) to say this conflict is wrong. It shouldn't be, but it is.

[Rayvin 5219]

Just now, The Fish said:

 

I don't think you can compare genocide with Brexit.  Even just as a "thing rational people don't want". 

 

I mean, when is the right time for the sitting President to speak out against one of it's closest international allies, especially one which exists in an area where the US has very few friends. I don't think us calling out the barbarism is the same as the US President doing it at all. I mean, look how long it took the international community to speak out against it? And they don't all have as much invested in a strong Israel as the States do. 

 

It's too unrealistic to expect Joe Biden (or any leader) to say this conflict is wrong. It shouldn't be, but it is.

 

I'm not, I'm comparing the mental thought patterns that we seem fine to use for one and not the other. Also I'm not calling what Israel is doing a genocide, I'm still benefit of the doubt on it with my desperate hope that they are a country simply in a lot of pain that doesn't actually want to completely eradicate all Palestinians. Call it my naivety. I'm simply saying that given their actions radicalise more people to join Hamas, they aren't winning without a genocide.

 

Some of the international community called it out immediately. A ceasefire was tabled at the UN in the same month it kicked off. 121 countries voted in favour of it. The UK "bravely" abstained, but the US voted against it with only 13 others. That was October 27th, 2023.

 

The reason you think opinion shifted only recently is because the US finally accepted that it had a moral responsibility to fall in line with most of the rest of the world.

[The Fish 10856]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'm not, I'm comparing the mental thought patterns that we seem fine to use for one and not the other. Also I'm not calling what Israel is doing a genocide, I'm still benefit of the doubt on it with my desperate hope that they are a country simply in a lot of pain that doesn't actually want to completely eradicate all Palestinians. Call it my naivety. I'm simply saying that given their actions radicalise more people to join Hamas, they aren't winning without a genocide.

 

Some of the international community called it out immediately. A ceasefire was tabled at the UN in the same month it kicked off. 121 countries voted in favour of it. The UK "bravely" abstained, but the US voted against it with only 13 others. That was October 27th, 2023.

 

The reason you think opinion shifted only recently is because the US finally accepted that it had a moral responsibility to fall in line with most of the rest of the world.

 

 

121 sounds like a lot, but when you look at the list, the overwhelming majority of those countries are not exactly what you'd call major players on the global scene. And while the UK 'bravely' abstained so did 22 other countries including Germany, Italy and the Dutch. 

 

I'd also suggest that the UN calling for a ceasefire has little power over Netanyahu. I think opinion has shifted because the US has finally got enough polling data in favour of a ceasefire to correct the course. I don't think morality has as much to do with it as you'd hope. 

[Dr Gloom 21915]

15 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I'm simply saying that given their actions radicalise more people to join Hamas

 

this, i agree with. and so tghe cycle of hate and vengence continues - on both sides. it's fucking hopeless