Politics

[PaddockLad 17281]

22 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

plenty of jewish people support the palestinian cause, myself included 

Yeah, Baddiel says he has problems with the Israeli government’s policies re Palestine but I’ve never seen him write as much as a syllable about it, but I’ve seen his book saying that Corbyn is a cunt (he’s largely right about that tbf) 

Edited January 13, 2023 by PaddockLad

[Alex 35095]

59 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

She like, many of her ilk - Bastani and the rest of the Corbyn cult - to this day remain in denial about antisemitism in the Labour party. 

 

She said 

 

"Anti-Semitism, at this point in history, is primarily experienced as prejudice and hostility towards Jews as Jews, largely without aspects of material dispossession (such as structural unemployment) that manifest in other forms of racism"

 

in other words, jews are all materially better off.

 

and because jews are all rich, antisemitism isn't as bad the other forms of racism against those who are materially disposed - because of course money protects you from racism. 

 

She can do one. 

Agree with what she said there but the views you highlight above I can’t get along with at all. I don’t know who she is as I’ve checked out of following this sort of thing to a large degree. But I think Baddiel is 100% correct in highlighting the various ways in which antisemitism is downplayed (and how he argues it should be considered to be exactly the same as any other form of racism - because it’s about ethnicity not religion). 
Putting that aside, it’s refreshing to hear a commentator espousing the sort of views shown in that clip on QT. Not that I watch it and have struggled to view more than the odd clip for years. But it appears to have been stacked with right wing cranks spouting bollocks for ages now. Maybe the BBC sense which way the wind’s blowing now. 

[ewerk 30620]

28 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

Yeah, Baddiel says he has problems with the Israeli government’s policies re Palestine but I’ve never seen him write as much as a syllable about it, but I’ve seen his book saying that Corbyn is a cunt (he’s largely right about that tbf) 

 

Why should he have to vocally support Palestine?

 

Careful, your anti-semitism is showing.

[NJS 4386]

I get Baddiel's argument that he doesn't care about Israel and that attitude shouldn't matter when it comes to antisemitism but at the same time for a lot of Jews the notion of its existence is central to their identity so I think it's fair to raise the subject with them - though not in an abusive manner of course. 

[PaddockLad 17281]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

 

Why should he have to vocally support Palestine?

 

Careful, your anti-semitism is showing.

Am not suggesting he should support Palestine, he’s apparently on record as being critical of the Israelis. Just saying I’ve never seen it 

 

He’s against the bigotry/prejudice shown towards him, fair enough. He says he’s against the Israelis policies, seeming not so much. It’s “footballification” , you support your own side mostly without exception . 
 

 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

8 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

Am not suggesting he should support Palestine, he’s apparently on record as being critical of the Israelis. Just saying I’ve never seen it 

 

He’s against the bigotry/prejudice shown towards him, fair enough. He says he’s against the Israelis policies, seeming not so much. It’s “footballification” , you support your own side mostly without exception . 
 

 

 

again, you're straying into antisemitic territory here.

 

you have to separate jewish people from the state of israel, the only jewish state in the world.

 

israel doesn't speak or act for all jews, and plenty of jewish people are appalled by its policies. 

[ewerk 30620]

8 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

Am not suggesting he should support Palestine, he’s apparently on record as being critical of the Israelis. Just saying I’ve never seen it 

 

He’s against the bigotry/prejudice shown towards him, fair enough. He says he’s against the Israelis policies, seeming not so much. It’s “footballification” , you support your own side mostly without exception . 
 

 

 

I've never seen Frank Skinner comment on the Israeli/Palestinian situation either.

 

He's free to comment on anti-semitism without campaigning for a free Palestine. It is anti-semitic to conflate Judaism and Israel. 

[PaddockLad 17281]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

again, you're straying into antisemitic territory here.

 

you have to separate jewish people from the state of israel, the only jewish state in the world.

 

israel doesn't speak or act for all jews, and plenty of jewish people are appalled by its policies. 

Am not sure why you think you need to explain this to me from what I’ve said. I’ve said Baddiel has apparently criticised the Israeli government. Or is Baddiel not allowed to criticise the Israeli government either?  

 

Im saying people come down heavy on their own side. He’s made a point of saying he has issues with the Israeli government. I’ve never seen it. In a way he’s similar in attitude to Corbyn, the bigotry he objects to is narrow and specific . 
 

 

[PaddockLad 17281]

41 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

I've never seen Frank Skinner comment on the Israeli/Palestinian situation either.

 

He's free to comment on anti-semitism without campaigning for a free Palestine. It is anti-semitic to conflate Judaism and Israel. 

I’ve completely seperated Judaism and the Israeli state. Ash Sarkar very likely doesn’t like Jewish folk. Baddiel has criticised the Israeli government apparently. Two different things. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by PaddockLad

[Dr Gloom 21924]

3 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

Am not sure why you think you need to explain this to me from what I’ve said. I’ve said Baddiel has apparently criticised the Israeli government. Or is Baddiel not allowed to criticise the Israeli government either?  

 

Im saying people come down heavy on their own side. He’s made a point of saying he has issues with the Israeli government. I’ve never seen it. In a way he’s similar in attitude to Corbyn, the bigotry he objects to is narrow and specific . 
 

 

 

i was replying to your point on the “footballification” of this issue. 

 

you said jewish people all support israel mostly without exception. i disagree - many of us deplore the israeli government and believe in a two state solution 

[PaddockLad 17281]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

 

i was replying to your point on the “footballification” of this issue. 

 

you said jewish people all support israel mostly without exception. i disagree - many of us deplore the israeli government and believe in a two state solution 

I sincerely believe you personally and others do. Yours isn’t a very loud voice though. Baddiel has one of the biggest and he only pays lip service to that notion . 
 

 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

2 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

She like, many of her ilk - Bastani and the rest of the Corbyn cult - to this day remain in denial about antisemitism in the Labour party. 

 

She said 

 

"Anti-Semitism, at this point in history, is primarily experienced as prejudice and hostility towards Jews as Jews, largely without aspects of material dispossession (such as structural unemployment) that manifest in other forms of racism"

 

in other words, jews are all materially better off.

 

and because jews are all rich, antisemitism isn't as bad the other forms of racism against those who are materially disposed - because of course money protects you from racism. 

 

She can do one. 

 

Is this statement incorrect? Not challenging, just curious. To the extent that material dispossession is a factor of systemic racism, it is almost certainly the case that some groups will feel it more keenly than others - for instance, UK government statistics reveal that asian people outperform black people in terms of household income - there isn't a one size fits all take on structural racism. Having said that, the fact that she chose to bring up this point in isolation is rather telling, I am sure there would have been a number of other less dog whistley points she could have made.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Is this statement incorrect? Not challenging, just curious. To the extent that material dispossession is a factor of systemic racism, it is almost certainly the case that some groups will feel it more keenly than others - for instance, UK government statistics reveal that asian people outperform black people in terms of household income - there isn't a one size fits all take on structural racism. Having said that, the fact that she chose to bring up this point in isolation is rather telling, I am sure there would have been a number of other less dog whistley points she could have made.

that’s a verbatim quote, yeah. Though you highlighted my conclusion too. 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

Or are you saying you agree with what she said? I’m not clear 

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

that’s a verbatim quote, yeah. Though you highlighted my conclusion too. 

 

But I mean, is she wrong about it? I get that she said it, and I agree with your interpretation of what is being said, but do we know if she's just made it up, or is it actually true?

[Rayvin 5223]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Or are you saying you agree with what she said? I’m not clear 

 

I don't have the information to agree or disagree short of quickly scanning the UK metrics on income inequality across various ethnic groups and learning that asian households outperform black ones on that single metric - I'm asking you really, if we know that she's wrong or not.

[Alex 35095]

If you make out they’re all well off they’re fair game to some on the left because they’re part of the elite / ruling class. It’s not a kick up the arse from there to believing conspiracy theories about them controlling global banking and pulling all the strings behind the scenes. 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I don't have the information to agree or disagree short of quickly scanning the UK metrics on income inequality across various ethnic groups and learning that asian households outperform black ones on that single metric - I'm asking you really, if we know that she's wrong or not.

 

i don't know. i haven't closely examined the income inequality data. i found what she said troubling firstly because not all jewish people are wealthy - this is the oldest antisemitic trope of all.

 

and so what if jewish people's incomes are generally higher than other minorities? it doesn't make antisemitism any less appalling than other forms of other racism. why even bring up material dispossession in the first place? 

[Rayvin 5223]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

If you make out they’re all well off they’re fair game to some on the left because they’re part of the elite / ruling class. It’s not a kick up the arse from there to believing conspiracy theories about them controlling global banking and pulling all the strings behind the scenes. 

 

I get that point, and I did reference that 'dog whistle' in my original post on it. No arguments from me on that.

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

i don't know. i haven't closely examined the income inequality data. i found what she said troubling firstly because not all jewish people are wealthy - this is the oldest antisemitic trope of all.

 

and so what if jewish people's incomes are generally higher than other minorities? it doesn't make antisemitism any less appalling than other forms of other racism. why even bring up material dispossession in the first place? 

 

For someone with an anti-semitic agenda it is indeed potentially harmful to do so. For students of structural racism, it would be a relevant consideration. If what she's saying is factually true (and I don't know either) then we are left to make judgements as to her implied meaning - and as I said, I do understand why you've taken it the way you have, I can see that in full. I was just curious really if she was wrong on that single point.

[Alex 35095]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I get that point, and I did reference that 'dog whistle' in my original post on it. No arguments from me on that.

Would the person making that argument have made it in relation to people who are ethnically Indian? Rhetorical question because they definitely wouldn’t have. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Alex said:

Would the person making that argument have made it in relation to people who are ethnically Indian? Rhetorical question because they definitely wouldn’t have. 

 

Just to check, are you arguing with me and if so, on which point? Or is this agreement? I'm a bit confused now.

 

The problem with these subjects is it's very difficult to have a straight conversation on it without having to repeatedly qualify everything being said to ensure people don't take things the wrong way. I did try to do this so I'm wary of potentially having failed and the need to clarify.

[ewerk 30620]

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Just to check, are you arguing with me and if so, on which point? Or is this agreement? I'm a bit confused now.

 

The problem with these subjects is it's very difficult to have a straight conversation on it without having to repeatedly qualify everything being said to ensure people don't take things the wrong way. I did try to do this so I'm wary of potentially having failed and the need to clarify.

Just get it over with and say sorry.

[Alex 35095]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

Just to check, are you arguing with me and if so, on which point? Or is this agreement? I'm a bit confused now.

 

The problem with these subjects is it's very difficult to have a straight conversation on it without having to repeatedly qualify everything being said to ensure people don't take things the wrong way. I did try to do this so I'm wary of potentially having failed and the need to clarify.

I’m not arguing with anyone really. And I do agree about it being difficult having a conversation without people jumping in and calling people racist for making a potentially valid point. It’s more that Sakar wouldn’t have, imo, argued the same case, ie effectively saying that racism directed towards people who are ethnically Indian is lessened because they are better off than some other ethnic minorities 

[ewerk 30620]

It’s the most commonly used justification for antisemitism, ‘we can’t be racist because we’re punching up’. Completely ignorant of the fact that you can’t use statistics to cover and entire group. Not all Jews are rich, not all blacks people are poor, it’s racist in itself to make these generalisations.

Edited January 13, 2023 by ewerk