Politics

[Renton 21623]

4 minutes ago, scoobos said:

How was the referendum not democratically executed? It was PR wasn't it? 1 person, 1 vote?

 

We've explained how a PR referendum vote is not truly democratic if the people are not properly informed.

 

Nad then it was an advisory referendum which you and others claim has to be mandatory to enact for starters. Hence you get the loophole lying and illegal funding are allowed. And what about Scotland? They voted in the SNP. They (cons) pomised Scotland the only way of staying in the EU was by voting to stay in the Union. They voted to stay in partly because of this. The SNP voted against the referendum being held in parliament. The Scots voted against Brexit by a much larger margin than England voted for it. They got Brexit anyway. There was no way of blocking it.  Go on, tell me on what planet that is remotely democratic? See also Norn Ireland who have had even more profound consequences despite voting against it.  

[scoobos 298]

10 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Who claimed that it was because they were stupid, exactly? I feel like you think that's what I'm saying but if so, you're not reading my posts properly. I also don't think I said they were lied to (they were). I said that their opinions being formed based on gut feel rather than informed evidence was a flawed structure that has no benefit within the democratic process. So if you prefer, the process by which people vote on gut feel instead of evidence and analysis, should be banned. Impractical, but then I was never really saying that there was any practical way of achieving this, I was just saying that it should be the case.

Yeah, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth - but I interpret this as saying "they have not educated themselves"

 

Those people should not be allowed to vote, frankly. They're voting based on nothing. This isn't a game, we have a duty to educate and inform ourselves before we undertake decisions that commit the country to years of a particular outcome - a responsibility that many don't take seriously. We all have access to the same information.

That reads to me as saying they havent educated themselves - thus I think internally, they are stupid.

But they are educating themselves, with information you would have had access to also  - but as most of it was based on what might happen - it's not 100% facts is it.

I'd say that unconscious bias makes us more susceptible to believe information that re-affirms our existing beliefs , so we ignore some parts and not others.

 

If people vote differently, because they believe non factual information - that's not a reason to deny them the vote imo - because, we ALL will in some way or another. We vote based on manifestos and future decisions - or should do , but others vote on people and not parties, which in my view we shouldn't do - but they still can. The vote has to be there for everyone , no matter what - or its not democracy. You can't just silence people in a democracy, no matter what you think of their views , that's not democracy. 

I hate brexit, I hate the USA "put myself first mentality" - but I can't move away from the UK now (for family reasons) so I have to respect that people vote mainly based on how it will affect their personal circumstances.

The whole thing that got me into this debate is the line about "these people shouldnt be allowed to vote". If that's not borderline oppressive, I don't know what is - and I know from reading your posts you're not that kind of person. 

 

 

[Craig 6682]

Statement in full - 8 minutes!
 

 

[Alex 35079]

Any vote that can’t be reversed is undemocratic. 

[scoobos 298]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

We've explained how a PR referendum vote is not truly democratic if the people are not properly informed.

 

Nad then it was an advisory referendum which you and others claim has to be mandatory to enact for starters. Hence you get the loophole lying and illegal funding are allowed. And what about Scotland? They voted in the SNP. They (cons) pomised Scotland the only way of staying in the EU was by voting to stay in the Union. They voted to stay in partly because of this. The SNP voted against the referendum being held in parliament. The Scots voted against Brexit by a much larger margin than England voted for it. They got Brexit anyway. There was no way of blocking it.  Go on, tell me on what planet that is remotely democratic? See also Norn Ireland who have had even more profound consequences despite voting against it.  

Ok, I hear you but this advisory referendum line is very similar to the leave campaign, in their eyes - how about full fact's take on it?

Was the EU referendum “advisory”? - Full Fact

 

[Holden McGroin 6583]

Was that worse than her PORK MARKETS press conference? 

[Craig 6682]

Can someone let the circus missing its clown know that it's currently holed up in Downing Street?

[wykikitoon 20139]

7 minutes ago, Holden McGroin said:

Can't Prince Charles just step in now? He'd go up in my estimation if he did.

One doesn't meddle in politics unless ones money is at risk.  

[scoobos 298]

10 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I'm not forgiving it until the wrongdoing is acknowledged.

 

Then forget it mate, for your own mental health. No one every apologies or acknowledges mistakes in politics. Its fucked.. We'll be back in 10 years.

Edited October 14, 2022 by scoobos

[Renton 21623]

2 minutes ago, scoobos said:

Ok, I hear you but this advisory referendum line is very similar to the leave campaign, in their eyes - how about full fact's take on it?

Was the EU referendum “advisory”? - Full Fact

 

 

Have you read the link you posted. It literally says it was not a legally binding referendum. And what you and the article have failed to recognise, it was for this reason it couldn't be anulled due to illegal funding and advertising. I don't think we are ever going to agree on this. It was not a democratic referendum and probably less than 10% of the population are happy where we ended up because of the Putin puppets. Problem is about 30% of them won't admit it. 

[The Fish 10857]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

This is also a good idea and last I checked would have us led by the Greens.

You were particularly swayed by the Kangaroo arsehole stuff weren't you? You big pervert.

[scoobos 298]

6 minutes ago, Craig said:

Statement in full - 8 minutes!
 

 

Erm, the opening line - and some basic maths.. Didnt she live under a Conservative government, in the North of England? What the actual fuck

[scoobos 298]

Just now, Renton said:

 

Have you read the link you posted. It literally says it was not a legally binding referendum. And what you and the article have failed to recognise, it was for this reason it couldn't be anulled due to illegal funding and advertising. I don't think we are ever going to agree on this. It was not a democratic referendum and probably less than 10% of the population are happy where we ended up because of the Putin puppets. Problem is about 30% of them won't admit it. 

I hate to do this as I can tell you're getting wound up and I dont want to be doing that. But did you read it , fully? The government actually told people to vote remain and that they would enact the result:
the government’s leaflet to all households advocating a Remain vote told voters that it would implement the result. 
 

[Holden McGroin 6583]

Are hardened tory voters still backing her? 

[Alex 35079]

Just now, scoobos said:

Erm, the opening line - and some basic maths.. Didnt she live under a Conservative government, in the North of England? What the actual fuck

She’s used that exact line before with the circumstances you mention being pointed out. 

[Gemmill 44872]

1 minute ago, scoobos said:

Erm, the opening line - and some basic maths.. Didnt she live under a Conservative government, in the North of England? What the actual fuck

 

Aye. But apparently in a relatively affluent part of Leeds and no one who went to her school agrees that it was anything like what she tries to paint it as. 

 

But yeah, the person in charge at the time was a woman she now idolises.

[wykikitoon 20139]

Just now, Holden McGroin said:

Are hardened tory voters still backing her? 

There was one on LBC a bit ago basically trying to say give her a chance and get behind her

 

Fuck off you slack cunt. 

[wykikitoon 20139]

Just now, Gemmill said:

 

Aye. But apparently in a relatively affluent part of Leeds and no one who went to her school agrees that it was anything like what she tries to paint it as. 

 

But yeah, the person in charge at the time was a woman she now idolises.

I would have said the majority of people who go to Roundhay are from one of the poorest area's of Leeds.  Bit Tom Pidcock went there too and his old fella is minted  

[Alex 35079]

1 minute ago, scoobos said:

I hate to do this as I can tell you're getting wound up and I dont want to be doing that. But did you read it , fully? The government actually told people to vote remain and that they would enact the result:
the government’s leaflet to all households advocating a Remain vote told voters that it would implement the result. 
 

None of which alters the fact that the link you posted literally states they didn’t have as it wasn’t legally binding. Are you suggesting governments always keep their promises, therefore anything they say must be subsequently carried out? Your line of argument on this is frankly ridiculous. 

[scoobos 298]

10 minutes ago, Alex said:

Any vote that can’t be reversed is undemocratic. 

oh god, I'm winding everyone up today! 

BUT - Huh?

I can't reverse my vote for Lib Dems in the 90's , because it was made and that was it - I was voting for whether I wanted my Lib Dem MP in parliament and it was a moment in time thing.

Isn't every vote like that?

[scoobos 298]

3 minutes ago, Holden McGroin said:

Are hardened tory voters still backing her? 

There are always some somewhere. 

I mean the feelings strong at the moment on Anti Tory  - but deep down I still fear that they might turn it around and win the vote , if not next election, the one after.

For over 2 decades I've thought "If the British public vote tory again, I'm leaving / not coming back" - and they do..

[Gemmill 44872]

3 minutes ago, wykikitoon said:

I would have said the majority of people who go to Roundhay are from one of the poorest area's of Leeds.  Bit Tom Pidcock went there too and his old fella is minted  

 

Aye but you're Yorkshire royalty. King fucking Whinge!

 

[Alex 35079]

1 minute ago, scoobos said:

oh god, I'm winding everyone up today! 

BUT - Huh?

I can't reverse my vote for Lib Dems in the 90's , because it was made and that was it - I was voting for whether I wanted my Lib Dem MP in parliament and it was a moment in time thing.

Isn't every vote like that?

Yes, you’re right. We never revisit who should be in government via the medium of subsequent elections. So that was a brilliant way of illustrating your point  

[scoobos 298]

3 minutes ago, Alex said:

None of which alters the fact that the link you posted literally states they didn’t have as it wasn’t legally binding. Are you suggesting governments always keep their promises, therefore anything they say must be subsequently carried out? Your line of argument on this is frankly ridiculous. 

Now now..

I think this proves my side discussion with Rayvin perfectly tbh - and its not ridiculous.

 

Saying that there shouldnt be a referendum because people elect governments to make these decisions is saying that a parliamentary democracy makes these high level decisions on the peoples behalf - which says its binding, given the government said they'd put it to MPs in parliament and enact it on a a vote. You can't have it both ways

 

Is this not ambiguous ?

 

In the end, the argument comes down to different visions for democracy in the United Kingdom. The conventional view is that ultimate political power lies with Parliament. The High Court came to its conclusion that the referendum was not legally binding guided by “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”.

In a parliamentary democracy, as barrister Rupert Myers bluntly puts it, “the people are not sovereign”.

[Renton 21623]

6 minutes ago, scoobos said:

I hate to do this as I can tell you're getting wound up and I dont want to be doing that. But did you read it , fully? The government actually told people to vote remain and that they would enact the result:
the government’s leaflet to all households advocating a Remain vote told voters that it would implement the result. 
 

 

Honetly man, Jesus Christ. That didn't make it binding referendum. Had it done so, it would have been anulled due to proven illegalities undertaken by Leave. In any case, nobody was saying, well not me anyway, that we shouldn't have enacted it. But as you well know, there was a myriad of ways of doing that. But for some reason the people weren't allowed to decide the direction we took next. Literally nobody voted for what we got, but you think it is democratic. Whatever, I've had years of trying to reason logically on these matters but it always falls on deaf ears.