Politics

[Rayvin 5186]

Blair didn't invent Neoliberalism and neither did Monbiot. I vaguely feel as though Hayek (not that one MF) might have done? It's a long standing economic policy concerning the transfer of state assets to private ownership.

 

Defined by investopedia as follows:

 

Neoliberalism is a policy model that encompasses both politics and economics. It favors private enterprise and seeks to transfer the control of economic factors from the government to the private sector.

 

Many neoliberal policies concern the efficient functioning of free market capitalism and focus on limiting government spending, government regulation, and public ownership.

 

Neoliberalism is often associated with the leadership of Margaret Thatcher, the prime minister of the U.K. from 1979 to 1990 (and leader of the Conservative Party from 1975 to 1990) and Ronald Reagan, the 40th president of the U.S. from 1981 to 1989.

 

More recently, neoliberalism has been associated with policies of austerity and attempts to cut government spending on social programs.

[Rayvin 5186]

The selling off of UK oil wealth in the 80s to friends of the Tories instead of investing it into a sovereign wealth fund like Norway did would qualify as corruption delivered through the vehicle of Neoliberalism. Which is what this energy policy also is.

[Monkeys Fist 42128]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Hayek …state assets 

Always happy to discuss the state of Hayek’s assets. 

 

[Renton 21388]

Just now, Rayvin said:

The selling off of UK oil wealth in the 80s to friends of the Tories instead of investing it into a sovereign wealth fund like Norway did would qualify as corruption delivered through the vehicle of Neoliberalism. Which is what this energy policy also is.

 

It wasn't called neoliberalism then, at leat I never heard it. Seems to me its use is so broad yet vague it's not useful. Is the EU neoliberal? It's often accused of it. If so, I have no issue with the ideology. Is Sweden neoliberal? Etc. I mean, yet again we are saying, or implying,  Blair's policies were the same as the current lot. I don't accept that. 

[Rayvin 5186]

I've literally just given you the definition of it - and it was called Neoliberalism then, just within academia and not the mainstream. You're the one who said Blair was neoliberal btw, I've not said anything of the sort. I'm just telling you what it actually means.

 

Although I have heard people suggest that he was.

[Renton 21388]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I've literally just given you the definition of it - and it was called Neoliberalism then, just within academia and not the mainstream. You're the one who said Blair was neoliberal btw, I've not said anything of the sort. I'm just telling you what it actually means.

 

Although I have heard people suggest that he was.

 

It's not really a definition though. For me neoliberalism is capitalism with a degree of state intervention. The European model. This contrasts with what Truss believes in, which is a US style laissez-faire capitalism. One leads to market failure and the crisis we're now witnessing, one intervenes to prevent this.

 

Yes, Blair was and still is described as a neoliberal, ask NJS. If he is I don't have an issue with the ideology. In reality it's an overused meaningless description imo. 

[Gemmill 44485]

Worse than a Liz Truss speech this.

 

BUT WHO WILL WIN??? 

[Rayvin 5186]

Here, I found a decent academic article on it - came into academic usage in the 1970s.

 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00131857.2021.1951704

 

10 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

For me neoliberalism is capitalism with a degree of state intervention. The European model.

 

The European model, I just read myself, is social liberalism - a school of thought created by the Germans. Neoliberalism has no interest whatsoever in any state intervention. It seeks to remove trade barriers, remove regulation, and treat all of society like consumers. It is entirely focused on the market, and removing it from government oversight. I think you would struggle to find anyone claiming it was anything other than this. So I would say you're thinking of Social Liberalism.

 

With respect of Blair, in the sense that he was pro-globalization, pro trade, we can say that there were neoliberal elements to philosophy. I don't think that means he was fully neoliberal though, and that should be something you consider too as it means that the government intervention elements, his third way, was actually a blend of neoliberalism and social components. Thus, neoliberalism itself is not about that blend, Blair's approach was. Sort of like saying that there are elements of fascism that all governments demonstrate in some form, but that doesn't make them wholly fascist.

 

The issue with neoliberalism for me is about the transfer of state assets to private entities, usually done for the mass enrichment of those individuals. Any time a state asset is sold, it's a neoliberal move. The market gains control, government loses it. In this case, Truss is taking a huge amount of public money and transferring it to private entities. Thatcher did the same with our oil. Neoliberalism is the mechanism through which this is done - rather than tax or regulate those companies, she is transferring public money.

[ewerk 30363]

Save yourselves the hassle and listen to this.

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/origin-story/id1624704966?i=1000565757073

[Monkeys Fist 42128]

7 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Worse than a Liz Truss speech this.

 

BUT WHO WILL WIN??? 

There are no winners here 

[Rayvin 5186]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Save yourselves the hassle and listen to this.

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/origin-story/id1624704966?i=1000565757073

 

Thanks, will listen to this.

 

1 minute ago, Monkeys Fist said:

There are no winners here 

 

I'm even providing citations, what more could you want?!

[ewerk 30363]

Vox pops really are the worst form of journalism. BBC went to a marginal in Doncaster where they got illuminating insights into voting intentions such as ‘I’ve always voted Labour but I’d back Truss’ and ‘Not Labour, they’d decimate the country’.

 

 

[Renton 21388]

10 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Here, I found a decent academic article on it - came into academic usage in the 1970s.

 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00131857.2021.1951704

 

 

The European model, I just read myself, is social liberalism - a school of thought created by the Germans. Neoliberalism has no interest whatsoever in any state intervention. It seeks to remove trade barriers, remove regulation, and treat all of society like consumers. It is entirely focused on the market, and removing it from government oversight. I think you would struggle to find anyone claiming it was anything other than this. So I would say you're thinking of Social Liberalism.

 

With respect of Blair, in the sense that he was pro-globalization, pro trade, we can say that there were neoliberal elements to philosophy. I don't think that means he was fully neoliberal though, and that should be something you consider too as it means that the government intervention elements, his third way, was actually a blend of neoliberalism and social components. Thus, neoliberalism itself is not about that blend, Blair's approach was. Sort of like saying that there are elements of fascism that all governments demonstrate in some form, but that doesn't make them wholly fascist.

 

The issue with neoliberalism for me is about the transfer of state assets to private entities, usually done for the mass enrichment of those individuals. Any time a state asset is sold, it's a neoliberal move. The market gains control, government loses it. In this case, Truss is taking a huge amount of public money and transferring it to private entities. Thatcher did the same with our oil. Neoliberalism is the mechanism through which this is done.

 

So what's the difference between laissez faire capitalism and neoliberalism? Not really wanting or expecting an answer, I just don't think these things can't be pigeon holed, although academics love doing this. Regardless, I think what we have under the conservatives today is simply something else, rank corruption worthy of a banana Republic. Truss isn't even a real Thatcherite, she is just another opportunist in the Johnson mode with no moral compass. I'd prefer Thatcher any day, we'd be back in the EU for starters. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Renton

[Rayvin 5186]

7 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

So what's the difference between laissez faire capitalism and neoliberalism? Not really wanting or expecting an answer, I just don't think these things can be pigeon holed, although academics love doing this. Regardless, I think what we have under the conservatives today is simply something else, rank corruption worthy of a banana Republic. Truss isn't even a real Thatcherite, she is just another opportunist in the Johnson mode with no moral compass. I'd prefer Thatcher any day, we'd be back in the EU for starters. 

 

I'm off down a rabbit hole on this now but the quick and easy answer is seems to be the idea with the former is the government steps back and lets the market get on with it, and the latter has the government serving the market to ensure optimal conditions for capitalist success, bending all of society into its service at the same time. On that definition, Truss is a neoliberal. Rather than letting consumers fail, refuse to pay or go without, as they would do through a laissez faire approach as a reaction to price increases, she is ensuring the market is sustained through the use of public money. That's how I -think- we should interpret this.

 

https://brill.com/view/book/9789004464452/BP000023.xml

[Monkeys Fist 42128]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

I'm even providing citations, what more could you want?!

How long have you been here?

 

Tits. Obvs. 
 

 

Also, “ Aspiration Nation” in Truss’ speech. 
1. Fuck off

2. They’ve had to cut the three word catchphrase formula to two, poor lamb gets confused. 
3.  Fuck off again. 

[Renton 21388]

Enough of this esoteric nonsense. Talking of tits, thought Liz had an alright rack there watching that speech, possibly her only redeeming feature. It has been suggested she has used her assets to rise to the top.

 

Meanwhile hurray for sterling! Good for exports etc.

 

 

[Gemmill 44485]

 

 

 

[spongebob toonpants 3956]

Jesus H Titty Fucking Christ

 

[Monkeys Fist 42128]

9 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Jesus H Titty Fucking Christ

 

Just in case it wasn’t clear how absolutely fucked we are, she’s done the political equivalent of BDSM. 

 

“ Take it, Bitches!”  
 

Except there’s no safe word to make it stop.*
 

 

 

 

* so I’m told.

 

[Monkeys Fist 42128]

At least the NHS is finally in safe hands though…

[Gemmill 44485]

Coffey will for sure need significant medical intervention in the next few years. At least she stands a good chance of being in a hospital when the shit goes down. 

[NJS 4375]

It's Braverman that's the vilest of that lot which is saying something. 

[Monkeys Fist 42128]

6 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Coffey will for sure need significant medical intervention in the next few years. At least she stands a good chance of being in a hospital when the shit goes down. 

Depending on her performance though, she might not come out too well …(breathing). 
 

[Monkeys Fist 42128]

7 minutes ago, NJS said:

It's Braverman that's the vilest of that lot which is saying something. 

It’s like a Bristol Stool Chart of MPs. 

[Meenzer 15425]

22 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

At least the NHS is finally in safe hands though…

 

She's anti-gay, too, which is just what you want from the health secretary when there's a monkeypox outbreak on the go