Politics

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

 

I don't think Starmer or any of his shadow cabinet have said that Brexit is a good idea or even that it's fine. They've pretty much said 'we are where we are, lets try to make the best of it'. That involves regulatory alignment and going back into EU programmes but stops short of entering the single market. Starmer has said that we can't relitigate arguments of the past and he's right on that, we can't do it right now. Labour certainly haven't made it a talking point but have set out their position early because the Tories will try to scaremonger that he wants to take us back into the EU. 

 

We all want them to come out and win a massive majority on a pro-EU platform that gives them a mandate to reverse the shit of the last six years but that's not going to happen. It will be baby steps and unfortunately that's the best we can hope for right now.

 

What about all of this refusing to blame Brexit for various delays and issues? It's going to get worse ahead of the actual GE - when we get into debates and so on and every journalist and presented out there knows this will be an uncomfortable question. They will have to lie. I mean Starmer has a fantasy 5 point plan to "make Brexit work". The implication they're pushing here is very much that it can work - that there is some version of reality where cutting ourselves off from our largest trading partner and political friend is somehow something which can have a positive outcome.

 

Aside from the fact I find it nauseating, it is an incredible gamble for Labour because they lose the high ground in full with this. If they can't make Brexit work in 5 years then we really are fucked. If there were easy answers to the issues being caused by the greatest political fuck up of our lifetimes, even the Tories would be taking them.

 

This is directly from Labour's homepage and it makes me so angry I'm not even going to comment on it beyond noting what is attributed to the phrase "short term fixes" with absolute incredulity:

 

The Government have missed Brexit opportunities time and time again. It beggars belief that during a cost of living crisis that they still haven’t cut VAT on energy bills.

Labour will be sharper than this. We will use our flexibility outside of the EU to ensure British regulation is adapted to suit British needs.

That is Labour’s plan to Make Brexit Work. It is a plan that puts the divisions of the past behind us and seizes on the challenges and opportunities of the future.

In 2016, the British people voted for change. The very narrow question that was on the ballot paper – leaving or remaining in the EU – is now in the past.

But the hope that underpinned that vote, the desire for a better, fairer, more equitable future for our country is no closer to being delivered.

We will not return to freedom of movement to create short term fixes. Instead we will invest in our people and our places, and deliver on the promise our country has.

[Craig 6682]

The mistake many people make with regards to Brexit is being of the belief that one side was for it and the other against. That wasn't the case at all. The direction to Tory leadership was steered to suggest the party is pro-Brexit. Whereas in reality, Europe has split their party for decades. 

Labour refused to offer an official position on Brexit whatsoever but with Corbyn getting into the habit of arguing the opposite of whatever Johnson said, it was assumed to be pro-remain. The reality in my mind is that there is a good mix of pro-brexit & pro-remain within both parties. 

The true 'pro-remain' party is, and always has been the Lib Dems. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Craig

[The Fish 10858]

6 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

It's a key difference in outlook. Your side of this surmises that ousting the Tories will deliver a Labour government which will stealth in a lot of useful policies which will lead us to a better future. Conversations like Brexit and nationalisation can wait for the next GE with, I assume, the logic being that everyone will have realised how amazing Labour are, and will be more tolerant of some more robust left wing ideas. The right wing press are rendered powerless in the face of this, and everything is resolved and we can freely discuss reality again.

 

Then there's my (and NJS and SBTP, not that I want to speak for them) side of this. That Labour are not stealthing in anything, and that what we see at the moment is what we are going to get. The conversation on Brexit will be surrendered into a "who did it better" deal, and we will be farther away than ever from being able to say that the whole thing is fucking ludicrous because both parties will have staked their reputations on backing it. Brexit thus becomes untouchable, meaning the primary controllable reason for our national decline becomes untouchable. If there is not a strong show of support for the idea that the truth about Brexit and how fucking stupid it is should be made very, very clear, then we are all simply buying into the Tory victory in the war if not the battle. This means that Labour are never forced to look again at this and are never forced to accept that their fucking broad church is engulfed in a right wing hellfire - they instead move to the right themselves because they know they can take you and me for granted because we are shit scared of the alternative.

 

But the problem is, Labour can't "out right wing" the Tories. If they try, we lose 5 more years to a government, even a Labour one, which refused to really deal with the main issues that are fucking over the country because they're too politically devastating to talk about - and then 5 years later the Tories come running back in with half a decade of examples of Labour fucking things up (because Brexit cannot be unfucked while it continues), and offer a "true" vision for what Brexit should have been. Labour effectively get them off the hook for the whole fiasco by dipping their hands in the blood, and then we are back to square fucking one with a full 10 years gone by and STILL no one will be brave enough to TELL THE FUCKING TRUTH - because it will STILL cost whoever does it the red fucking wall. And when that happens, people on here will be lining up to tell me that there is too much at stake "this time" to stick to my "principles and ideals", that the Tories are just around the corner, that my issues can come later. 

 

For this reason, the only way I would possibly countenance voting for Labour, would be if they bring in PR. That's the only outcome worth making it look like I agree that they should get on with enacting Brexit. Because it would permanently remove the suggestion that I should vote for a slightly saner insanity for fear of absolute insanity.

 

Beyond that, I refuse to choose between decline or slower decline. That's a fucking piss poor set of options and it's only being forced on us because Labour know we are fucking terrified and will vote for anything to get rid of the Tories. That's not a dedication to some nebulous ideal on my part incidentally. That's dedication to wanting a choice better than shooting yourself in the bollocks until you bleed out, or cutting to the chase and just blowing your head off.

 

I refuse, with every fibre of my being, to endorse Brexit. In any sense, whatsoever. Labour are lying to people, they're doing it willingly, and it is pathetic. They don't believe a word they're saying and I honestly don't think any leave voters will buy it anyway. Long term, this lying leads us to an utterly horrifying place, potentially putting us a lifetime away from rejoining - therefore, giving us a lifetime of shit compared to what we could have had. What we did have.

 

I'm not naive enough to think that we will ever get that back now, the writing is on the fucking wall. But this is the hill I'm dying on because I very literally can't compromise my perception of reality anymore to accept this horseshit. And because I don't believe we have a fucking future without internationalism and the breaking down of nation states. "Britain's best days are ahead". Not a single fucking one of them, not even the Tories, believe that. So why do we keep choosing these empty vessels, these worthless, valueless, visionless cowards to represent us?

 

Labour can get to fuck. The Chamberlain to the Tory Hitler. The best we can hope for, perversely, is that Starmer lies to the red wall like he lied to the membership. If he does that, you'll get an immediate apology from me for not believing that he would be such a cunt, even if it's in our favour. I'll make a single dedicated thread for it in fact. The "I'm sorry for not realising Starmer is the most cynical bastard of a politician of our time, I now fucking love the guy" thread.

 

 

Fair points. However, for me, voting for the Tories, or not voting at all, is setting fire to the bus as we career towards the cliff edge. I honestly don't care about Labour, or Starmer, I don't care that he's unimpressive and speaks with the kind of vague platitudes that are designed to not piss too many people off (or at least not too many of the loud minority). 

 

I cannot countenance putting ideology ahead of pragmatic removal of a set of cunts hell bent on lining their pockets while the world burns. Labour may be incompetent, they may also have self-serving cunts, but I see more of them represent my views, my ideals, than anything on the other side of the aisle. And this country has no chance of returning to some semblance of competence while they're in power.

 

We keep choosing the least of two empty vessels because that's the choice. Corbyn was full of passion and exciting ideas, look how he did outside of the socialist heartlands (even within them to be fair). If we want a left leaning government, I'm afraid we're going to have to vote in a government that's simply a little less right leaning than this one. There's just no way this country of cunts is going to about face and vote in an actual progressive socialist government. So I'll take my doom-bound bus with a little less fire, thankyou very much. 

[ewerk 30620]

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

What about all of this refusing to blame Brexit for various delays and issues? It's going to get worse ahead of the actual GE - when we get into debates and so on and every journalist and presented out there knows this will be an uncomfortable question. They will have to lie. I mean Starmer has a fantasy 5 point plan to "make Brexit work". The implication they're pushing here is very much that it can work - that there is some version of reality where cutting ourselves off from our largest trading partner and political friend is somehow something which can have a positive outcome.

 

Aside from the fact I find it nauseating, it is an incredible gamble for Labour because they lose the high ground in full with this. If they can't make Brexit work in 5 years then we really are fucked. If there were easy answers to the issues being caused by the greatest political fuck up of our lifetimes, even the Tories would be taking them.

 

This is directly from Labour's homepage and it makes me so angry I'm not even going to comment on it beyond noting what is attributed to the phrase "short term fixes" with absolute incredulity:

 

The Government have missed Brexit opportunities time and time again. It beggars belief that during a cost of living crisis that they still haven’t cut VAT on energy bills.

Labour will be sharper than this. We will use our flexibility outside of the EU to ensure British regulation is adapted to suit British needs.

That is Labour’s plan to Make Brexit Work. It is a plan that puts the divisions of the past behind us and seizes on the challenges and opportunities of the future.

In 2016, the British people voted for change. The very narrow question that was on the ballot paper – leaving or remaining in the EU – is now in the past.

But the hope that underpinned that vote, the desire for a better, fairer, more equitable future for our country is no closer to being delivered.

We will not return to freedom of movement to create short term fixes. Instead we will invest in our people and our places, and deliver on the promise our country has.

 

They have to say all that though. I don't want to hear it and neither do you but if they're in any way uncertain in their messaging over the SM, CU or FOM then they will be painted as trying to rejoin the EU by stealth.

 

You and I know that Brexit has been a shitshow, Labour know it and I think that at this point even most of the Tory cheerleaders for Brexit know it. But we're stuck in this ridiculous situation where no one can admit it. This issue will have been focus grouped to death and this is what they have come up with. For the average thick Brexiteer this isn't about whether they're right or wrong but about the fact that they won. To hell with the consequences, just don't take their victory away from them. Look at our own thick Brexiteer on here, literally everything he claimed pre-referendum has proven to be false and has he once come out and admitted that maybe he got it wrong? No. He now just ignores the issue entirely, content with the fact that his side won.

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, The Fish said:

Fair points. However, for me, voting for the Tories, or not voting at all, is setting fire to the bus as we career towards the cliff edge. I honestly don't care about Labour, or Starmer, I don't care that he's unimpressive and speaks with the kind of vague platitudes that are designed to not piss too many people off (or at least not too many of the loud minority). 

 

I cannot countenance putting ideology ahead of pragmatic removal of a set of cunts hell bent on lining their pockets while the world burns. Labour may be incompetent, they may also have self-serving cunts, but I see more of them represent my views, my ideals, than anything on the other side of the aisle. And this country has no chance of returning to some semblance of competence while they're in power.

 

We keep choosing the least of two empty vessels because that's the choice. Corbyn was full of passion and exciting ideas, look how he did outside of the socialist heartlands (even within them to be fair). If we want a left leaning government, I'm afraid we're going to have to vote in a government that's simply a little less right leaning than this one. There's just no way this country of cunts is going to about face and vote in an actual progressive socialist government. So I'll take my doom-bound bus with a little less fire, thankyou very much. 

 

It's not about not voting, I'll go Green. Maybe that's tantamount to the same thing, but there has to remain a bloc of people who Labour perceive that they have 'lost' for this conversation ever to move back in the right direction again. If we don't stand up for the things that matter, we don't get them back. Your pragmatic reality looks very sensible -right now- but I would put to you that I have a pragmatism that spans more than one electoral cycle. This is about the war, not the battle. If we lose the next election with firm representation for the truth, then we have at least still held onto the truth. If we win it by sacrificing the truth, we aren't getting that back.

 

Labour cannot be allowed to sacrifice the truth and for it to cost them nothing because fundamentally, the cost of my vote is the only thing they give a flying fuck about. It is the only way to send that message.

 

Finally, just going to point out that more than 50% of the country voted for remain leaning parties. There is a perpetually thwarted "decent" majority in this country, if not all socialist, and we are nowhere near as furious as we should be that it is prevented from actually achieving its goals. I'm not particularly a socialist either for what it's worth, I think capitalism has a lot of value to add - I'm pretty middle of the road despite what tends to be assumed about me. This isn't about socialism or anything other than Brexit for me.

[Craig 6682]

9 minutes ago, The Fish said:

If we want a left leaning government, I'm afraid we're going to have to vote in a government that's simply a little less right leaning than this one. There's just no way this country of cunts is going to about face and vote in an actual progressive socialist government. 

 

That is pretty much the size of it to be honest. As a nation we are predominately right wing and to stand there and argue that the Labour Party should put socialistic ideology before pragmatism and then expect them to be elected is just not realistic. 

[Rayvin 5223]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

They have to say all that though. I don't want to hear it and neither do you but if they're in any way uncertain in their messaging over the SM, CU or FOM then they will be painted as trying to rejoin the EU by stealth.

 

You and I know that Brexit has been a shitshow, Labour know it and I think that at this point even most of the Tory cheerleaders for Brexit know it. But we're stuck in this ridiculous situation where no one can admit it. This issue will have been focus grouped to death and this is what they have come up with. For the average thick Brexiteer this isn't about whether they're right or wrong but about the fact that they won. To hell with the consequences, just don't take their victory away from them. Look at our own thick Brexiteer on here, literally everything he claimed pre-referendum has proven to be false and has he once come out and admitted that maybe he got it wrong? No. He now just ignores the issue entirely, content with the fact that his side won.

 

I can't do it. I can't do this bit. I understand fully everything you're saying, I know this is how a lot of you are seeing it, but this position is so absurd, so damaging, and frankly so fucking childish, that I will not have anything to do with it. We're saying that we have to bend over and buy into a delusion for people who are stupid and insecure. Just no. Not doing it. They can fuck off - as I said, I will die on this hill.

 

And I'm aware, incidentally, that this isn't just about Brexit in the end - people are struggling with inflation, with shortages, with organisational chaos that impacts their lives in a very real way. I know this, it affects me too. I'm not untouched by the consequences of the Tories winning again. I'm self employed and have a variable workload that at times is impacted negatively by my mental health challenges - I still rent because I can't build up money reliably enough to buy (plus buying as a freelancer is also very challenging). I have a partner who can't work and, as an EU citizen, isn't entitled to any manner of benefits - so I support both of us on what I earn. I'm not going to pretend that there aren't people who have it far worse, but I'm far from untouched by this shitty government.

 

And even despite that, I would take another 5 years of the Tories if it brought us closer to actually fixing this. I might kill myself during that 5 years, but at least I could haunt the fuck out of Johnson if that ever happened.

[Rayvin 5223]

7 minutes ago, Craig said:

 

That is pretty much the size of it to be honest. As a nation we are predominately right wing and to stand there and argue that the Labour Party should put socialistic ideology before pragmatism and then expect them to be elected is just not realistic. 

 

Who is arguing this presently?

[Gemmill 44900]

I think my mam might even be starting to realise it's a shitshow. I was talking to her about the delays at Dover the other day and she was all "it's the FRENCH!" to which my response was "but if we've taken back control how can the French be stopping us leaving our own country" to which her response was "shut up, shut up, I'm not talking to you about it."

The next day I sent her a screenshot from an article about increased red tape since we left and how it's doubled the cost to the chemical industry. She just responds with "Shush!" but she fucking knows. 

 

My new thing is gonna be sending her news of these Brexit dividends every couple of days in an attempt to counter all the fucking groups she's joined on FB that tell her it's going great. 

[ewerk 30620]

15 minutes ago, Craig said:

 

That is pretty much the size of it to be honest. As a nation we are predominately right wing and to stand there and argue that the Labour Party should put socialistic ideology before pragmatism and then expect them to be elected is just not realistic. 

 

I think that the Tory party right now are the weakest they've been since the 2000's. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that a Labour party with the right leader could sell a more socialist manifesto to the people. Starmer isn't the man to do that and there isn't anyone waiting in the wings with the charisma of Blair to do the job instead of him.

[Rayvin 5223]

24 minutes ago, Craig said:

The mistake many people make with regards to Brexit is being of the belief that one side was for it and the other against. That wasn't the case at all. The direction to Tory leadership was steered to suggest the party is pro-Brexit. Whereas in reality, Europe has split their party for decades. 

Labour refused to offer an official position on Brexit whatsoever but with Corbyn getting into the habit of arguing the opposite of whatever Johnson said, it was assumed to be pro-remain. The reality in my mind is that there is a good mix of pro-brexit & pro-remain within both parties. 

The true 'pro-remain' party is, and always has been the Lib Dems. 

 

Labour did have an official policy on Brexit - I know they did because I walked out of the party over it. Their official position was to get on with it. In 2019, due to serious pressure from the membership, they relented and offered a second referendum option (and I rejoined the party, only to leave once again when Starmer walked us back out of being pro-EU again).

 

In the original vote, I've posted on here before, Labour and the LDs were close to identical in terms of the number of people who vote for those parties supporting Remain:

 

 

The true pro-Remain party is the Greens.

[Rayvin 5223]

5 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

I think my mam might even be starting to realise it's a shitshow. I was talking to her about the delays at Dover the other day and she was all "it's the FRENCH!" to which my response was "but if we've taken back control how can the French be stopping us leaving our own country" to which her response was "shut up, shut up, I'm not talking to you about it."

 

The next day I sent her a screenshot from an article about increased red tape since we left and how it's doubled the cost to the chemical industry. She just responds with "Shush!" but she fucking knows. 

 

My new thing is gonna be sending her news of these Brexit dividends every couple of days in an attempt to counter all the fucking groups she's joined on FB that tell her it's going great. 

 

You're doing the lord's work  

[Renton 21627]

Rayvin has absollutely laced you lot in this debate. It boils down to the fundamental importance of truth, without that the country is fucked. Starmer is a liar and a coward. The country can't move on under his stewardship. I'm aware how much I've flip flopped on this issue but I've had enough now. The only thing I care about is the truth. If you can't give me that, if your game is to appease the liars and Gemmill's mam, you can get fucked. 

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

11 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

I think that the Tory party right now are the weakest they've been since the 2000's. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that a Labour party with the right leader could sell a more socialist manifesto to the people. Starmer isn't the man to do that and there isn't anyone waiting in the wings with the charisma of Blair to do the job instead of him.

This just proves my point. The Tories have won the argument, we are the same as the US in that any sensible moderate proposal is labelled socialist, even by our own side. We just keep ceding the argument and the Overton window moves inexorably to the right.

[NJS 4386]

Voting Labour in the hope they'll be "decent" and open the door to moving leftwards is a lie. 

 

See the Democrats under Obama and even worse Biden and to a lesser degree New Labour - NL did do some good things but did nothing to change attitudes to smearing the concept of socialism - as illustrated by Blair's quote about preferring a tory government to a left wing Labour party. 

 

I'm not as focused on the brexit side of things as Rayvin - I think across the board labour under Starmer will be no different to the tories. 

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

Rayvin has absollutely laced you lot in this debate. It boils down to the fundamental importance of truth, without that the country is fucked. Starmer is a liar and a coward. The country can't move on under his stewardship. I'm aware how much I've flip flopped on this issue but I've had enough now. The only thing I care about is the truth. If you can't give me that, if your game is to appease the liars and Gemmill's mam, you can get fucked. 

Exactly right

[Gemmill 44900]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

Rayvin has absollutely laced you lot in this debate. It boils down to the fundamental importance of truth, without that the country is fucked. Starmer is a liar and a coward. The country can't move on under his stewardship. I'm aware how much I've flip flopped on this issue but I've had enough now. The only thing I care about is the truth. If you can't give me that, if your game is to appease the liars and Gemmill's mam, you can get fucked. 

 

See you next week when you're back onside.

 

[Rayvin 5223]

16 minutes ago, Renton said:

Rayvin has absollutely laced you lot in this debate. It boils down to the fundamental importance of truth, without that the country is fucked. Starmer is a liar and a coward. The country can't move on under his stewardship. I'm aware how much I've flip flopped on this issue but I've had enough now. The only thing I care about is the truth. If you can't give me that, if your game is to appease the liars and Gemmill's mam, you can get fucked. 

 

I do want to add that I understand the points of view the others have on this. I'm not really saying I'm right, just that I personally can't compromise on this. Each to their own though.

[Renton 21627]

19 minutes ago, NJS said:

Blair's quote about preferring a tory government to a left wing Labour party. 

 

Have you got a link to this quote putting it in context? Also NJS you can be honest and admit you're a lexiter. That's my strong impression of the history of your posts.

[Renton 21627]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I do want to add that I understand the points of view the others have on this. I'm not really saying I'm right, just that I personally can't compromise on this. Each to their own though.

 

In the spirit of honesty I'll admit that I will still vote for my Labour constituent MP, who I know quite well and is a decent man. But on the rest you have persuaded me Starmer is not a solution.

[NJS 4386]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

 

Have you got a link to this quote putting it in context? Also NJS you can be honest and admit you're a lexiter. That's my strong impression of the history of your posts.

Absolutely not at all - I think there was/is a lot wrong with the EU (See Greece) but I was a strong believer in being in and pissing out. 

 

I think Blair said that in the context of Corbyn but he said it in general terms as well - I'll have a look. 

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tony-blair-says-he-wouldn-t-want-a-leftwing-labour-party-to-win-an-election-10406928.html

 

Fair enough he doesn't mention the tories, just a Labour victory but still. 

 

I understand his point about what he thinks works but disagree - I don't think the formation of the NHS would have passed his test. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by NJS
Added quote.

[Toonpack 9432]

Nein, nope, njet, non, NOOOOO

 

[Gemmill 44900]

Starmer just sacked the shadow transport minister for joining the picket line today 

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

10 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Starmer just sacked the shadow transport minister for joining the picket line today 

Disgusting

 

Thats not the political party for me

Edited July 27, 2022 by spongebob toonpants

[Rayvin 5223]

Mental stuff from the "Labour" party.