Politics

[Alex 35095]

She’s got a point but the Labour membership never seem to get their head around the fact they aren’t remotely representative of the electorate. Especially the Corbyn Cultists (not saying she is necessarily  one of the latter). 
 

[Gemmill 44900]

Just now, Alex said:

She’s got a point but the Labour membership never seem to get their head around the fact they aren’t remotely representative of the electorate. Especially the Corbyn Cultists (not saying she is necessarily  one of the latter). 
 

 

She's STILL got JC4PM in her twitter bio, so I'm happy to conclude that she is.

 

[The Fish 10858]

I don't understand the idea that you shouldn't vote for the opposition (Labour or Lib Dem) in an effort to oust the Tories, just because their leadership isn't the ideal you hope it to be.

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

Wether she has a point or not, she isn't saying anything that should have been a surprise to him. It's no secret that the Sun is despised in Liverpool. It's not a shock that left leaning people are increasingly exasperated at Starrmer abandoning all of his promised progressive policies.

His response though is to sit there looking like a frightened cod. 

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

6 minutes ago, The Fish said:

I don't understand the idea that you shouldn't vote for the opposition (Labour or Lib Dem) in an effort to oust the Tories, just because their leadership isn't the ideal you hope it to be.

I don't understand how anybody can look at Starmers performance and have any confidence that he can win an election, and if he does back his way into a victory have any chance of running a successful government

[The Fish 10858]

Just now, spongebob toonpants said:

I don't understand how anybody can look at Starmers performance and have any confidence that he can win an election, and if he does back his way into a victory have any chance of running a successful government

I won't be voting for Starmer, or even the Labour party in the next GE, I'm voting against the Tories. If the Green party had a shot of beating the Tories, I'd vote for them and all.

 

And if everyone was as shrewd as I, we'd have a new government sharpish. But, if everybody was as brilliant as I am, the whole planet would be a bald-headed, full-bearded, dad-bodded utopia.

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

2 minutes ago, The Fish said:

I won't be voting for Starmer, or even the Labour party in the next GE, I'm voting against the Tories. If the Green party had a shot of beating the Tories, I'd vote for them and all.

 

And if everyone was as shrewd as I, we'd have a new government sharpish. But, if everybody was as brilliant as I am, the whole planet would be a bald-headed, full-bearded, dad-bodded utopia.

It's not you who he needs to get voting for him, he has the Pimms drinking shithouse vote locked in already

[Gemmill 44900]

 

 

 

[NJS 4386]

2 hours ago, Alex said:

She’s got a point but the Labour membership never seem to get their head around the fact they aren’t remotely representative of the electorate. Especially the Corbyn Cultists (not saying she is necessarily  one of the latter). 
 

Not a cultist but on nationalisation the membership reflects the electorate a lot more than Starmer. 

[ewerk 30620]

Nationalising utilities could cost between £60-200bn. It’s probably not the best use of public money at a time of rising government debt and borrowing costs.

[Toonpack 9432]

 

[Gemmill 44900]

Sunak dropped his wallet. 

[PaddockLad 17281]

 

[Gemmill 44900]

Presenter fainted. The big dafty. 

[trooper 940]

Its going to be fucking Liz Thatcher that wins isn't it

Edited July 26, 2022 by trooper

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894]

2 hours ago, trooper said:

Its going to be fucking Liz Thatcher that wins isn't it

[trooper 940]

[Rayvin 5223]

11 hours ago, The Fish said:

I don't understand the idea that you shouldn't vote for the opposition (Labour or Lib Dem) in an effort to oust the Tories, just because their leadership isn't the ideal you hope it to be.

 

It's a key difference in outlook. Your side of this surmises that ousting the Tories will deliver a Labour government which will stealth in a lot of useful policies which will lead us to a better future. Conversations like Brexit and nationalisation can wait for the next GE with, I assume, the logic being that everyone will have realised how amazing Labour are, and will be more tolerant of some more robust left wing ideas. The right wing press are rendered powerless in the face of this, and everything is resolved and we can freely discuss reality again.

 

Then there's my (and NJS and SBTP, not that I want to speak for them) side of this. That Labour are not stealthing in anything, and that what we see at the moment is what we are going to get. The conversation on Brexit will be surrendered into a "who did it better" deal, and we will be farther away than ever from being able to say that the whole thing is fucking ludicrous because both parties will have staked their reputations on backing it. Brexit thus becomes untouchable, meaning the primary controllable reason for our national decline becomes untouchable. If there is not a strong show of support for the idea that the truth about Brexit and how fucking stupid it is should be made very, very clear, then we are all simply buying into the Tory victory in the war if not the battle. This means that Labour are never forced to look again at this and are never forced to accept that their fucking broad church is engulfed in a right wing hellfire - they instead move to the right themselves because they know they can take you and me for granted because we are shit scared of the alternative.

 

But the problem is, Labour can't "out right wing" the Tories. If they try, we lose 5 more years to a government, even a Labour one, which refused to really deal with the main issues that are fucking over the country because they're too politically devastating to talk about - and then 5 years later the Tories come running back in with half a decade of examples of Labour fucking things up (because Brexit cannot be unfucked while it continues), and offer a "true" vision for what Brexit should have been. Labour effectively get them off the hook for the whole fiasco by dipping their hands in the blood, and then we are back to square fucking one with a full 10 years gone by and STILL no one will be brave enough to TELL THE FUCKING TRUTH - because it will STILL cost whoever does it the red fucking wall. And when that happens, people on here will be lining up to tell me that there is too much at stake "this time" to stick to my "principles and ideals", that the Tories are just around the corner, that my issues can come later. 

 

For this reason, the only way I would possibly countenance voting for Labour, would be if they bring in PR. That's the only outcome worth making it look like I agree that they should get on with enacting Brexit. Because it would permanently remove the suggestion that I should vote for a slightly saner insanity for fear of absolute insanity.

 

Beyond that, I refuse to choose between decline or slower decline. That's a fucking piss poor set of options and it's only being forced on us because Labour know we are fucking terrified and will vote for anything to get rid of the Tories. That's not a dedication to some nebulous ideal on my part incidentally. That's dedication to wanting a choice better than shooting yourself in the bollocks until you bleed out, or cutting to the chase and just blowing your head off.

 

I refuse, with every fibre of my being, to endorse Brexit. In any sense, whatsoever. Labour are lying to people, they're doing it willingly, and it is pathetic. They don't believe a word they're saying and I honestly don't think any leave voters will buy it anyway. Long term, this lying leads us to an utterly horrifying place, potentially putting us a lifetime away from rejoining - therefore, giving us a lifetime of shit compared to what we could have had. What we did have.

 

I'm not naive enough to think that we will ever get that back now, the writing is on the fucking wall. But this is the hill I'm dying on because I very literally can't compromise my perception of reality anymore to accept this horseshit. And because I don't believe we have a fucking future without internationalism and the breaking down of nation states. "Britain's best days are ahead". Not a single fucking one of them, not even the Tories, believe that. So why do we keep choosing these empty vessels, these worthless, valueless, visionless cowards to represent us?

 

Labour can get to fuck. The Chamberlain to the Tory Hitler. The best we can hope for, perversely, is that Starmer lies to the red wall like he lied to the membership. If he does that, you'll get an immediate apology from me for not believing that he would be such a cunt, even if it's in our favour. I'll make a single dedicated thread for it in fact. The "I'm sorry for not realising Starmer is the most cynical bastard of a politician of our time, I now fucking love the guy" thread.

 

 

[Howmanheyman 33246]

4 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

It's a key difference in outlook. Your side of this surmises that ousting the Tories will deliver a Labour government which will stealth in a lot of useful policies which will lead us to a better future. Conversations like Brexit and nationalisation can wait for the next GE with, I assume, the logic being that everyone will have realised how amazing Labour are, and will be more tolerant of some more robust left wing ideas. The right wing press are rendered powerless in the face of this, and everything is resolved and we can freely discuss reality again.

 

Then there's my (and NJS and SBTP, not that I want to speak for them) side of this. That Labour are not stealthing in anything, and that what we see at the moment is what we are going to get. The conversation on Brexit will be surrendered into a "who did it better" deal, and we will be farther away than ever from being able to say that the whole thing is fucking ludicrous because both parties will have staked their reputations on backing it. Brexit thus becomes untouchable, meaning the primary controllable reason for our national decline becomes untouchable. If there is not a strong show of support for the idea that the truth about Brexit and how fucking stupid it is should be made very, very clear, then we are all simply buying into the Tory victory in the war if not the battle. This means that Labour are never forced to look again at this and are never forced to accept that their fucking broad church is engulfed in a right wing hellfire - they instead move to the right themselves because they know they can take you and me for granted because we are shit scared of the alternative.

 

But the problem is, Labour can't "out right wing" the Tories. If they try, we lose 5 more years to a government, even a Labour one, which refused to really deal with the main issues that are fucking over the country because they're too politically devastating to talk about - and then 5 years later the Tories come running back in with half a decade of examples of Labour fucking things up (because Brexit cannot be unfucked while it continues), and offer a "true" vision for what Brexit should have been. Labour effectively get them off the hook for the whole fiasco by dipping their hands in the blood, and then we are back to square fucking one with a full 10 years gone by and STILL no one will be brave enough to TELL THE FUCKING TRUTH - because it will STILL cost whoever does it the red fucking wall. And when that happens, people on here will be lining up to tell me that there is too much at stake "this time" to stick to my "principles and ideals", that the Tories are just around the corner, that my issues can come later. 

 

For this reason, the only way I would possibly countenance voting for Labour, would be if they bring in PR. That's the only outcome worth making it look like I agree that they should get on with enacting Brexit. Because it would permanently remove the suggestion that I should vote for a slightly saner insanity for fear of absolute insanity.

 

Beyond that, I refuse to choose between decline or slower decline. That's a fucking piss poor set of options and it's only being forced on us because Labour know we are fucking terrified and will vote for anything to get rid of the Tories. That's not a dedication to some nebulous ideal on my part incidentally. That's dedication to wanting a choice better than shooting yourself in the bollocks until you bleed out, or cutting to the chase and just blowing your head off.

 

I refuse, with every fibre of my being, to endorse Brexit. In any sense, whatsoever. Labour are lying to people, they're doing it willingly, and it is pathetic. They don't believe a word they're saying and I honestly don't think any leave voters will buy it anyway. Long term, this lying leads us to an utterly horrifying place, potentially putting us a lifetime away from rejoining - therefore, giving us a lifetime of shit compared to what we could have had. What we did have.

 

I'm not naive enough to think that we will ever get that back now, the writing is on the fucking wall. But this is the hill I'm dying on because I very literally can't compromise my perception of reality anymore to accept this horseshit. And because I don't believe we have a fucking future without internationalism and the breaking down of nation states. "Britain's best days are ahead". Not a single fucking one of them, not even the Tories, believe that. So why do we keep choosing these empty vessels, these worthless, valueless, visionless cowards to represent us?

 

Labour can get to fuck. The Chamberlain to the Tory Hitler. The best we can hope for, perversely, is that Starmer lies to the red wall like he lied to the membership. If he does that, you'll get an immediate apology from me for not believing that he would be such a cunt, even if it's in our favour. I'll make a single dedicated thread for it in fact. The "I'm sorry for not realising Starmer is the most cynical bastard of a politician of our time, I now fucking love the guy" thread.

 

 

Great post but the red wall shit, nah, he doesn't want to piss the floating voters off who have 'our boys' and 'Britain Uber alles' tendencies. I'll tell you now there's more of them elsewhere than the mythical red wall which was so mighty it's basically had Tory govt after Tory govt thrust on it for decades against it's wishes. In short, it's propaganda and a release valve for those in the south to blame. I've even had encounters on twatter where remainders in the south have had a dig at us, even Newcastle specifically, and when you check out their location they live in Tory constituencies which voted leave. The hypocrisy is off the map with some. They've been fed shite for a reason. Sorry for veering off your post. (There's an apology to help you balance your 'sorrys' out).

[Howmanheyman 33246]

Just now, Howmanheyman said:

Great post but the red wall shit, nah, he doesn't want to piss the floating voters off who have 'our boys' and 'Britain Uber alles' tendencies. I'll tell you now there's more of them elsewhere than the mythical red wall which was so mighty it's basically had Tory govt after Tory govt thrust on it for decades against it's wishes. In short, it's propaganda and a release valve for those in the south to blame. I've even had encounters on twatter where remainders in the south have had a dig at us, even Newcastle specifically, and when you check out their location they live in Tory constituencies which voted leave. The hypocrisy is off the map with some. They've been fed shite for a reason. Sorry for veering off your post. (There's an apology to help you balance your 'sorrys' out).

If also add that while I see the points about it being suicide to get into brexit pre-election I also would hope someone has the balls to go at at it in plain English, with easy to establish facts and points out how much damage it's doing and will do. We've all seen the polls on it's popularity so maybe the honest approach could be more beneficial than we imagine?

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

19 minutes ago, Howmanheyman said:

We've all seen the polls on it's popularity so maybe the honest approach could be more beneficial than we imagine?

It's exactly this, and as much because it will be impossible to sort the country out without facing the biggest reason for the problems we are having

[ewerk 30620]

As much as Brexit is unpopular I'd hazard a guess that talking about Brexit is even more unpopular with the general public. People are sick of hearing about it. A fair few voted for the Tories last time in order to 'Get Brexit Done'. They don't want that can of worms re-opened and the Tories would absolutely love Labour to make it an issue at the next election. We aren't rejoining the EU or even the single market in the next parliament, as a country we aren't ready for it, so it's pointless making it a talking issue.

[Rayvin 5223]

40 minutes ago, Howmanheyman said:

Great post but the red wall shit, nah, he doesn't want to piss the floating voters off who have 'our boys' and 'Britain Uber alles' tendencies. I'll tell you now there's more of them elsewhere than the mythical red wall which was so mighty it's basically had Tory govt after Tory govt thrust on it for decades against it's wishes. In short, it's propaganda and a release valve for those in the south to blame. I've even had encounters on twatter where remainders in the south have had a dig at us, even Newcastle specifically, and when you check out their location they live in Tory constituencies which voted leave. The hypocrisy is off the map with some. They've been fed shite for a reason. Sorry for veering off your post. (There's an apology to help you balance your 'sorrys' out).

 

Fair enough, and maybe I focus unfairly on the red wall at times. Truth be told the only reason for that is that they're the only segment of leave voters who I think could come back to Labour - the rest I've considered to be beyond redemption.

 

I take the point though.

[Rayvin 5223]

5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

As much as Brexit is unpopular I'd hazard a guess that talking about Brexit is even more unpopular with the general public. People are sick of hearing about it. A fair few voted for the Tories last time in order to 'Get Brexit Done'. They don't want that can of worms re-opened and the Tories would absolutely love Labour to make it an issue at the next election. We aren't rejoining the EU or even the single market in the next parliament, as a country we aren't ready for it, so it's pointless making it a talking issue.

 

You know, I think I could honestly get by with the notion that it can't be dealt with next time out but at least Labour aren't going to pretend it's a great and workable idea. That might just about sail on my end - but that's not what we're being served. We are being lied to that Brexit is actually fine but needs implementing properly. So Labour categorically is making it a talking point, and it's the same one the Tories are pushing.

 

Why? Honestly what other reason can there possibly be beyond that they're taking those of us who know the truth for granted, and trying to buy into the lies that leave voters want to hear. I won't have any part of that charade, it's repellant. Labour are costing themselves my vote, I'm not being difficult for wanting a political party that deals in factual reality.

[ewerk 30620]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You know, I think I could honestly get by with the notion that it can't be dealt with next time out but at least Labour aren't going to pretend it's a great and workable idea. That might just about sail on my end - but that's not what we're being served. We are being lied to that Brexit is actually fine but needs implementing properly. So Labour categorically is making it a talking point, and it's the same one the Tories are pushing.

 

Why? Honestly what other reason can there possibly be beyond that they're taking those of us who know the truth for granted, and trying to buy into the lies that leave voters want to hear. I won't have any part of that charade, it's repellant. Labour are costing themselves my vote, I'm not being difficult for wanting a political party that deals in factual reality.

 

I don't think Starmer or any of his shadow cabinet have said that Brexit is a good idea or even that it's fine. They've pretty much said 'we are where we are, lets try to make the best of it'. That involves regulatory alignment and going back into EU programmes but stops short of entering the single market. Starmer has said that we can't relitigate arguments of the past and he's right on that, we can't do it right now. Labour certainly haven't made it a talking point but have set out their position early because the Tories will try to scaremonger that he wants to take us back into the EU. 

 

We all want them to come out and win a massive majority on a pro-EU platform that gives them a mandate to reverse the shit of the last six years but that's not going to happen. It will be baby steps and unfortunately that's the best we can hope for right now.