Politics

[ewerk 30620]

Do you really expect them to release a full economic plan three years ahead of an election? This is what being in opposition is about. I'm not saying Starmer or Labour are inspiring anyone right now but it's a case of sitting tight until the next GE is called.

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

Nope, I don't expect a full economic plan but if the best you can come out with is this ypu might as well keep your mouth shut

 

However, he will say his economic plan will be founded on three principles – “strong, secure, fair”.

“Strong, because it will build a foundation where every business and every person plays a role,” he is expected to say.

“Secure, because it will produce good jobs that don’t leave people feeling insecure.

“Fair, because it will unlock the potential of every place – every community, every town and every city.”

 

[ewerk 30620]

Yes, again we're three years out from an election. I'd expect him to speak in broad strokes. You keep your powder dry until people are actually listening. I'm taking a leap of faith and hoping that they have actually policies for when the time comes.

[Craig 6682]

I agree with ewerk, I don't seem much wrong with the position Starmer is taking at this stage. 

[Gemmill 44900]

Stick 5 Live on now. They're discussing the cause of the delays at Dover. The majority of the callers say that it has NOTHING to do with Brexit. They accept that more checks are required, every passport has to be checked, and that that means that what might have taken 30 seconds might now take two minutes or more. 

 

So they accept that it takes more time because of Brexit, but they REFUSE to make the logical leap that it therefore is also Brexit that is causing the queues. It's the fault of the French because the French are FURIOUS that we've left so they want to make it seem like it's Brexit. 

 

This is what we're dealing with. A complete breakdown in logic because of their emotional connection to Brexit. 

 

A bloke saying "give it 5 years! You've got to let it bed in! Give it 5 years then try and tell me it's Brexit."

 

This is why I keep saying this argument is unwinnable so Labour should absolutely not try to litigate it now. These people will not accept basic logic. They are true believers. It will kill Labour if they try to take this on. 

[Gemmill 44900]

Wife from North Shields coming up. I'm in the brace position. 

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

Here's the problem. If you don't challenge it becomes the orthodoxy, so in the same way that the global financial crash in the the UK narrative was the fault of Labour, we are going to end up with everyone believing that the countries problems are due to anything but Brexit.

[Alex 35095]

46 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Here's the problem. If you don't challenge it becomes the orthodoxy, so in the same way that the global financial crash in the the UK narrative was the fault of Labour, we are going to end up with everyone believing that the countries problems are due to anything but Brexit.

While I can see why they’re doing this I also find it desperately depressing that Labour (and indeed the Tories, with not even one of them willing to break lines) seem unable to tell the truth about the causes. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Alex

[ewerk 30620]

7 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Here's the problem. If you don't challenge it becomes the orthodoxy, so in the same way that the global financial crash in the the UK narrative was the fault of Labour, we are going to end up with everyone believing that the countries problems are due to anything but Brexit.

 

This is different to 2008. As Gemmill said above, in one of his rare moments of competence, this is emotional for people. Telling them flat out that they're wrong is going to lose votes. If you look at the polling on the issue it's becoming clear that Brexit is losing support among the public, give it enough time and hopefully there will be an opportunity to stand up against Brexit before the next election but now isn't the time.

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

This is different to 2008. As Gemmill said above, in one of his rare moments of competence, this is emotional for people. Telling them flat out that they're wrong is going to lose votes. If you look at the polling on the issue it's becoming clear that Brexit is losing support among the public, give it enough time and hopefully there will be an opportunity to stand up against Brexit before the next election but now isn't the time.

Fair enough, but that's where we disagree. This border issue I think is exactly the right sort of thing that's easy to explain. There are always going to be a sizeable group who shout the loudest, but them cunts would never vote Labour anyway

Labour should be hammering this sort of thing

 

Otherwise if they sneak in they will have no mandate to do anything about it

 

Mind you judging by what Starmer has said he won't change it anyway

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

Actually where we disagree is I think that if Labour get in without an agenda to address Brexit and some radical policies for change then the country will still be completely fucked

I don't think Starmer is capable, or wants to be that leader.

The view that you have to take anyone but the Tories will, in my opinion, just contribute to a slightly slower decline, then a much faster one when they inevitably sweep back to power on the back of Labour's failure

Edited July 25, 2022 by spongebob toonpants

[Gemmill 44900]

 

 

The arms on Coffey. She's absolutely ripped. Like a white John Coffey. 

 

 

[NJS 4386]

I could take Starmer's "growth" stuff if it mentioned redistribution but it doesn't - you can grow this economy as much as you want but if it continues to diverge as it has done then it's a complete waste of time. 

[ewerk 30620]

Redistribution = communism. 

[Alex 35095]

10 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

 

The arms on Coffey. She's absolutely ripped. Like a white John Coffey. 

 

 

Can’t believe she’s only 50 btw 

[Gemmill 44900]

Good to hear that James Cleverly was suggested as Education Minister as a joke (because he's largely considered to be an idiot) and Johnson just went with it for the craic. 

 

Is it any wonder teachers are leaving the profession in their droves ffs. 

[Renton 21627]

1 hour ago, Gemmill said:

Stick 5 Live on now. They're discussing the cause of the delays at Dover. The majority of the callers say that it has NOTHING to do with Brexit. They accept that more checks are required, every passport has to be checked, and that that means that what might have taken 30 seconds might now take two minutes or more. 

 

So they accept that it takes more time because of Brexit, but they REFUSE to make the logical leap that it therefore is also Brexit that is causing the queues. It's the fault of the French because the French are FURIOUS that we've left so they want to make it seem like it's Brexit. 

 

This is what we're dealing with. A complete breakdown in logic because of their emotional connection to Brexit. 

 

A bloke saying "give it 5 years! You've got to let it bed in! Give it 5 years then try and tell me it's Brexit."

 

This is why I keep saying this argument is unwinnable so Labour should absolutely not try to litigate it now. These people will not accept basic logic. They are true believers. It will kill Labour if they try to take this on. 

 

Yet every poll I've seen says most people think Brexit us going badly (by a ratio of 2 to 1)  and most people would like to reverse it. Meanwhile, the Dover asylum seekers issue doesn't even feature in the top 10 of concerns, amongst conservative voters. This I what I don't get.

[Gemmill 44900]

1 minute ago, Alex said:

Can’t believe she’s only 50 btw 

 

Is that right?  She looks exactly like someone with her opinions SHOULD look. 

 

[Alex 35095]

There’s a piece on the beeb about NHS Staffing shortages being at crisis point. How many times do think Brexit gets a mention as a potential cause? 

[Alex 35095]

1 minute ago, Gemmill said:

 

Is that right?  She looks exactly like someone with her opinions SHOULD look. 

 

 

Aye. I saw it mentioned recently and had to go and look it up thinking ‘that can’t be right’. But it’s correct 

[Howmanheyman 33246]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

There’s a piece on the beeb about NHS Staffing shortages being at crisis point. How many times do think Brexit gets a mention as a potential cause? 

I'd take a wild guess at 'zip'?

[Gemmill 44900]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

There’s a piece on the beeb about NHS Staffing shortages being at crisis point. How many times do think Brexit gets a mention as a potential cause? 

 

One of the few blokes on 5 Live who WAS blaming Dover on Brexit brought this up. He was quickly redirected by Nicky Campbell to focus on Dover only. Heaven forbid someone should accidentally tell the truth. 

[Alex 35095]

1 minute ago, Howmanheyman said:

I'd take a wild guess at 'zip'?

Yeah, it’s not even hinted at

[Gemmill 44900]

33 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Actually where we disagree is I think that if Labour get in without an agenda to address Brexit and some radical policies for change then the country will still be completely fucked

I don't think Starmer is capable, or wants to be that leader.

The view that you have to take anyone but the Tories will, in my opinion, just contribute to a slightly slower decline, then a much faster one when they inevitably sweep back to power on the back of Labour's failure

 

You didn't tell me that one of Starmer's five principles for promoting growth is:

 

We will be distinctively British

 

 

20% of his economic plan is bowler hats and bangers and mash. 

[Renton 21627]

I've just been listening to Starmer there. He bored me shitless tbh.