Politics

[Alex 35095]

Or £10k and the rest going to an offshore account in Carrie’s name

[Gemmill 44900]

There was a really good section on this week's Remainiacs podcast where the Politics Professor Rob Ford was asked the "do Labour need to talk more about brexit" question. 

 

His answer was along the lines of that the voters that Labour have and the seats they hold are broadly moderately to strong Remain, and the voters and seats that they need are moderately to strong Leave.  At the minute we have a cost of living crisis which is broadly being viewed as a failure of the government, so the idea of Labour trying to inject into that conversation the idea that "you know, a lot of this is down to Brexit" would be in his words "the worst possible thing" that Labour could do.  The current setup of your average person thinking that they are worse off and it's the government's fault is the ideal situation for an opposition party, so why try and change that view. 

 

If you try to make it about Brexit, the Leave contingent will tune out and you'll lose them and they're the very people that you need to win an election.  

 

He says the argument is absolutely not put to bed and we'll have to have the conversation at some point.  But when you have a situation that is "manna from heaven" for an opposition party where the economy is tanking, the cost of living is soaring and the government is failing on multiple policy fronts, why would you want to intervene and change that, and turn it back into a tribal Leave/Remain argument. 

 

It would be a total gift to Johnson and the Tories.  It's not a case of Labour can never have that conversation - the time will come, but it would be political suicide to have it now at a point when so much is going for you. 

 

Argue against that if you can. 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Gemmill

[Rayvin 5223]

7 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

There was a really good section on this week's Remainiacs podcast where the Politics Professor Rob Ford was asked the "do Labour need to talk more about brexit" question. 

 

His answer was along the lines of that the voters that Labour have and the seats they hold are broadly moderately to strong Remain, and the voters and seats that they need are moderately to strong Leave.  At the minute we have a cost of living crisis which is broadly being viewed as a failure of the government, so the idea of Labour trying to inject into that conversation the idea that "you know, a lot of this is down to Brexit" would be in his words "the worst possible thing" that Labour could do.  The current setup of your average person thinking that they are worse off and it's the government's fault is the ideal situation for an opposition party, so why try and change that view. 

 

If you try to make it about Brexit, the Leave contingent will tune out and you'll lose them and they're the very people that you need to win an election.  

 

He says the argument is absolutely not put to bed and we'll have to have the conversation at some point.  But when you have a situation that is "manna from heaven" for an opposition party where the economy is tanking, the cost of living is soaring and the government is failing on multiple policy fronts, why would you want to intervene and change that, and turn it back into a tribal Leave/Remain argument. 

 

It would be a total gift to Johnson and the Tories.  It's not a case of Labour can never have that conversation - the time will come, but it would be political suicide to have it now at a point when so much is going for you. 

 

Argue against that if you can. 

 

 

 

That's not a new view, that's the exact position a number of you have had on here for ages. I'm aware that this is the view, but you cannot deny that the whole strategy there rests on taking for granted the votes of the people who they "still have". My issue isn't that I think Labour stand a better chance of winning by talking about Brexit, it's that not talking about it and not focusing on it mean that we're losing fucking decades over the long term while we piss about trying to softly softly the issue with fuckwits. These people will never be ready for that conversation if we don't actually start having it, and Labour are never going to want to have it. Largely because, I would argue, they know bleeding hearts like us will vote for them no matter what while the leave voters have made clear that they'll stick to their principles.

[Gemmill 44900]

I don't think it takes for granted the views of those people whose vote it already has. I'm one of them and I totally understand that they can't win the election going down your route which prevents them from halting the decline anyway. 

 

I think they're relying on that in the knowledge that they can rely on no such intelligent thought from the people you yourself term fuckwits.

 

I don't feel taken for granted. I get what they're doing and that the alternative is not good for them or me because it means more Tory rule. 

 

I don't understand how you can't see that you're presenting a perfect Catch 22 situation but still insisting that in order to win your vote back they need to commit political suicide. 

 

Anyway we've been around the houses on this. I'm not suggesting it was a new view, I just thought it being presented eloquently by an actual professor of politics might have had some impact. But you insist on being stuck in your doom loop, so we can end this exchange very quickly and not waste any more time.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Gemmill

[Rayvin 5223]

It's not a doom loop from my end, it's that I believe the sooner we take the bitter medicine on this, the sooner we can actually unfuck ourselves.

 

I'm still not disagreeing that the strategy is a more successful short term approach by the way. My position on this has never been that I think talking about Brexit is a vote winner. So we all agree there - the leave voters will stick to their principles, we will compromise on ours. I know this.

[Renton 21627]

22 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

It's not a doom loop from my end, it's that I believe the sooner we take the bitter medicine on this, the sooner we can actually unfuck ourselves.

 

I'm still not disagreeing that the strategy is a more successful short term approach by the way. My position on this has never been that I think talking about Brexit is a vote winner. So we all agree there - the leave voters will stick to their principles, we will compromise on ours. I know this.

 

I don't even think that's right, it's a matter of timing. Honestly, in case you haven't,  you should listen to the whole podcast Gemmill referenced, not just that episode, but the whole series. It's really informative. It's called "Oh God what now?" which I thought was a terrible name after Remainiacs, but it has turned out to be spot on. People like Dunt and Andreou offer real insight. Also a lot more funny than the New Statesman I also listen to. 

[Gemmill 44900]

 

 

Great bunch of lads. 

[Renton 21627]

37 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

 

Great bunch of lads. 

 

Does this mean it's okay for the rest of us to watch porn at work. Great, I've a committee meeting in a couple of weeks, these.can be a bit boring so I know what to do. 

[Renton 21627]

And if I get caught I'll just take a few weeks holiday. Cool.

[Renton 21627]

Burnham for PM @Rayvin. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/25/andy-burnham-says-labour-must-seize-moment-and-back-proportional-representation?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

 

[Renton 21627]

This is normal.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/25/boris-johnsons-aspiration-to-serve-for-a-third-term-delusional?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

 

[Gemmill 44900]

He was just being a snippy prick / trolling the rebels, I think. 

[Renton 21627]

This is well worth 10 minutes of your time. Explains in lay terms why the economy is fucked by the tories. How they get away with claiming to be the party of business and the economy is mind blowing.

 

 

 

 

[Renton 21627]

1 hour ago, Gemmill said:

He was just being a snippy prick / trolling the rebels, I think. 

 

If that's the case it's a pretty fucking stupid thing to do. 

[Gemmill 44900]

That's Johnson for you. When cornered he gets aggressive and nasty. Emotional. 

[Renton 21627]

Feel like I'm spamming a bit today but lots of interesting stuff happening. Look at this yet more breth taking hypocrisy from the Heil.

 

 

 

[Gemmill 44900]

They're fucking shitting it. They thought they could continue to rip the piss out of the country and the left would stay splintered and they found out on Friday that they were wrong. 

[Howmanheyman 33246]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

This is well worth 10 minutes of your time. Explains in lay terms why the economy is fucked by the tories. How they get away with claiming to be the party of business and the economy is mind blowing.

 

 

 

 

Analysis such as this is explained needs to be on BBC, Sky etc. I don't devour the news but what I see on TV or hear on the radio just gives the cunts an easier ride than is warranted if they're being honest with themselves. They're too busy trying to be 'balanced' and playing devil's advocate then with no irony whatsoever they'll then give plenty of time to the newspaper reviews as if they are a credible source? 

[Gemmill 44900]

 

 

[ewerk 30620]

It went so well for them last time.

[Renton 21627]

Would the tories give them a proper PR referendum? Maybe but they'd be vicious in their campaign against it with the full force of the Sun and Mail out in force. I think its pretty unlikely. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Renton

[Monkeys Fist 42459]

Barristers out in strike today, they’ve been offered a 15% pay rise but not until the end 2023. 
 

Whilst I fully support their right to strike, and their demands, I’m not sensing the same vitriol being directed towards them as the RMT members … funny that 

[Renton 21627]

18 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Barristers out in strike today, they’ve been offered a 15% pay rise but not until the end 2023. 
 

Whilst I fully support their right to strike, and their demands, I’m not sensing the same vitriol being directed towards them as the RMT members … funny that 

 

You mean directed from the government and red tops/Heil? Maybe.

 

The legal profession has been absolutely shafted by this government since Cameron's first days. People have the perception lawyers are all loaded but the reality is many, in criminal law in particular, are paid less than minimum wage. The 15% rise is bollocks, this is worth reading if you're interested.

 

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2022/06/27/the-criminal-bar-on-strike-9-things-you-need-to-know/

 

 

 

[Alex 35095]

I agree with you both. I think MF is coming at of from a press coverage point of view too. But this is a strike they can’t blame on Labour. Even though it’s ridiculous to blame the RMT action on Labour there was scope to do so via the Tory propaganda machine. 

[Craig 6682]

23 minutes ago, Renton said:

People have the perception lawyers are all loaded but the reality is many, in criminal law in particular, are paid less than minimum wage. 

Agree with this. People think of barristers and immediately have QCs in the head. You might as well try comparing Premier League footballers with those playing in the National League.