Politics

[ewerk 30620]

41 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'm not expecting Labour to saunter into power and immediately restore us to the EU. I am demanding truth. What concerns me about Labour, I suppose more than anything, is that they haven't learned their lesson from 2010. They are still running scared of the right wing press, amending policy in response to it, and attempting to ride of the coat tails of narratives they didn't create and don't believe in.

 

As long as they do that, they will simply never be able to be as effective and convincing as the Tories can be over the long term. I don't think we have to be ashamed of the fact that we have the views we do. I don't think we are wrong. It depresses me that we have to go through this farce and it genuinely worries me for the future, because it means that the right is setting the agenda. As they did with Brexit and austerity.

 

As for the GE, I'm not sure how I'd react if Labour lose but I guarantee you that it wont come down to my vote which will be utterly meaningless wherever I cast it, as it always has been. This is bigger than the next GE though - you said yourself this could run on for the rest of our working lives. When is the right time to try and improve that? How much of our lives do we waste placating idiots? I just can't man.

 

The answer is PR. It isn't a vote winner and generally the public don't care but Labour is in favour of it and Unison have just come out in support of it. But the only way that happens is with a Labour PM. That's the key to a better democracy.

[The Fish 10858]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

That's what grown ups have to do sometimes.   

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, ewerk said:

 

The answer is PR. It isn't a vote winner and generally the public don't care but Labour is in favour of it and Unison have just come out in support of it. But the only way that happens is with a Labour PM. That's the key to a better democracy.

 

Are Labour in favour of it? This conversation becomes really simple for me if they are because I fully agree.  But I wasn't aware they'd said as much.

[Craig 6682]

The biggest Tory majority to be overturned in a parliamentary election ever, apparently. 

Word going round that Downden resigned before he was booted out in a reshuffle. So I take Patel's words about him with a massive pinch of salt. She's an absolute axis of evil, that one.

[Renton 21627]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You presumably mostly agreed with his policies though. Voting for policies, not people, I would argue is more grown up

 

Only to an extent. You have to have faith the leader is intelligent and competent enough to implement his policies. I never did with Corbyn. 

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

Only to an extent. You have to have faith the leader is intelligent and competent enough to implement his policies. I never did with Corbyn. 

 

So for me, I don't believe Starmer is capable of standing up to the right wing press (because he never has), I don't believe he has any vision whatsoever for where we are going.... but I would vote for him if he came out in favour of policies that matter to me. He's coming up zero on both sides of the argument for me so far unless they really do go for PR which, as I've said many times, would instantly gain him my vote.

[ewerk 30620]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Are Labour in favour of it? This conversation becomes really simple for me if they are because I fully agree.  But I wasn't aware they'd said as much.

 

80% of CLPs are for it. It was the second most popular issue at conference last year but the unions blocked it. Now since then we've seen one of the biggest change their mind. It should be a matter of time before the others come round.

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, ewerk said:

 

80% of CLPs are for it. It was the second most popular issue at conference last year but the unions blocked it. Now since then we've seen one of the biggest change their mind. It should be a matter of time before the others come round.

 

Well then we may all have a lot less to argue about in time because I'll start telling people that Starmer is the second coming of Christ if he backs proper PR.

[Renton 21627]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

So for me, I don't believe Starmer is capable of standing up to the right wing press (because he never has), I don't believe he has any vision whatsoever for where we are going.... but I would vote for him if he came out in favour of policies that matter to me. He's coming up zero on both sides of the argument for me so far unless they really do go for PR which, as I've said many times, would instantly gain hum my vote.

 

I'd be very surprised if there aren't a lot of good policies locked in a vault. No point allowing the tories to steal them which they have done countless times. Your issue is that a forthright approach to rejoining the EU won't be one of them. But I don't even think the LDs support this now. So what are you going to do? 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Renton

[NJS 4386]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Are Labour in favour of it? This conversation becomes really simple for me if they are because I fully agree.  But I wasn't aware they'd said as much.

The membership is and some of the unions but surprise, surprise the MPs are dead against it so when Starmer changes the rules to protect his own position, he'll ensure PR is off the table. 

[Renton 21627]

1 minute ago, NJS said:

The membership is and some of the unions but surprise, surprise the MPs are dead against it so when Starmer changes the rules to protect his own position, he'll ensure PR is off the table. 

 

Go on then, justify that claim. 

[Rayvin 5223]

4 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I'd be very surprised if there aren't a lot of good policies locked in a vault. No pint allowing the tories to steal them which they have done countless times. Your issue is that a forthright approach to rejoining the EU won't be one of them. But I don't even think the LDs support this now. So what are you going to do? 

 

Scour manifestos for the most EU aligned position and/or pivot to PR if that's on the table. If not for Labour, the LDs or Greens will have it.

 

I don't want to spend the rest of my life in this shit mate. And for all that the current iteration of the Tories are a really bad moment in general, they're not actually the long term problem anymore.

 

I'll vote wherever I feel I'm most aligned versus chances of winning. Labour will have to do less to get my vote than the LDs or Greens (due to a far higher chance of power), but they will have to do something.

[Craig 6682]

I am somewhat baffled by the 38.5% of people who voted in Tiverton and Honiton who looked around (gestures vaguely at everything) and thought "this is fine - keep voting Tory"

 

Morons.

[Renton 21627]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Scour manifestos for the most EU aligned position and/or pivot to PR if that's on the table. If not for Labour, the LDs or Greens will have it.

 

I don't want to spend the rest of my life in this shit mate. And for all that the current iteration of the Tories are a really bad moment in general, they're not actually the long term problem anymore.

 

I'll vote wherever I feel I'm most aligned versus chances of winning. Labour will have to do less to get my vote than the LDs or Greens (due to a far higher chance of power), but they will have to do something.

 

As you say, makes no difference to us voters in safe seats anyway. I fully agree PR is the most important thing, I'd rank my wants as:

1) Introduction of PR.

2) Full scottish devo and English federalisation.

3) Rejoining EU/EFTA, or gaining access to EEA (and FoM).

 

Do our objectives align? 

[Rayvin 5223]

I can take or leave Scotland because they're a backdoor into the EU again if nothing else. Quite happy for the Scots to call that without my input tbh.

 

I'd have it as:

 

3

1

-- overhaul of press standards, formal and legally enforced codes of conduct for ministers, Greater constitutional safeguards

2

 

I mean there's loads I want but the long term issues need the pressure faster.

 

[NJS 4386]

14 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Go on then, justify that claim. 

It was set to pass at the last conference but a last minute deal with the nec and either unison or unite scuppered it by a small percentage. 

 

 

[Renton 21627]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I can take or leave Scotland because they're a backdoor into the EU again if nothing else. Quite happy for the Scots to call that without my input tbh.

 

I'd have it as:

 

3

1

-- overhaul of press standards, formal and legally enforced codes of conduct for ministers, Greater constitutional safeguards

2

 

I mean there's loads I want but the long term issues need the pressure faster.

 

 

Well you're wrong.

EU membership could be reversed again with FPTP. So PR is the necessary first step to becoming a mature democracy which would stop us ever having shit like this again, and would also massively bolster our chances of acceptance into the EU community. But you know, I've been banging out about it for 30 years, bot all happens, despite my impression most Labour MPs privately back it. 

[Renton 21627]

Just now, NJS said:

It was set to pass at the last conference but a last minute deal with the nec and either unison or unite scuppered it by a small percentage. 

 

 

 

I meant the following claim, that Labour MPs are against it. I just don't think that's true. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Renton said:

 

Well you're wrong.

EU membership could be reversed again with FPTP. So PR is the necessary first step to becoming a mature democracy which would stop us ever having shit like this again, and would also massively bolster our chances of acceptance into the EU community. But you know, I've been banging out about it for 30 years, bot all happens, despite my impression most Labour MPs privately back it. 

 

Sorry are we talking our wants in terms of strategy? I was just outlining my overall wishlist of political outcomes. PR may well enable EU re-entry but I don't care about it as an issue more than EU re-entry itself.

 

I believe in the EU dream and I believe the only way to make the world safe is through large blocs of countries supporting each other and moving towards ever greater union. I would have surrendered my British passport and citizenship for an EU one very happily if the time ever came.

 

PR matters to me because I can now see the horrors of our system without it, and because it is the ultimate revenge that can be delivered to the Tories for pissing all over us for 12 fucking years. It may help us get back to the EU sooner, it probably will, but the satisfaction I'll get from the Conservatives being utterly fucked by it is my main motivation. Remove the enemy for good. That is a long term plan I can support happily.

[Renton 21627]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Sorry are we talking our wants in terms of strategy? I was just outlining my overall wishlist of political outcomes. PR may well enable EU re-entry but I don't care about it as an issue more than EU re-entry itself.

 

I believe in the EU dream and I believe the only way to make the world safe is through large blocs of countries supporting each other and moving towards ever greater union. I would have surrendered my British passport and citizenship for an EU one very happily if the time ever came.

 

PR matters to me because I can now see the horrors of our system without it, and because it is the ultimate revenge that can be delivered to the Tories for pissing all over us for 12 fucking years. It may help us get back to the EU sooner, it probably will, but the satisfaction I'll get from the Conservatives being utterly fucked by it is my main motivation. Remove the enemy for good. That is a long term plan I can support happily.

 

I fully agree with you about the EU and "the dream". I had an EU flag under my avatar when I first started posting here for that reason (that option has disappeared now). I am an absolute europhile, but now I believe the UK only damages the project, hence I want a more peripheral role. Change has to come from within, in this case reform of our antiquated adverserial FPTP system imo. Nothing really good will happen whilst we retain this. Same applies for the US btw. Anyway, I guess we're on the same page, just have different emotional attachments. 

[Renton 21627]

 

[Rayvin 5223]

15 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I meant the following claim, that Labour MPs are against it. I just don't think that's true. 

 

Does it ever bother you that we don't know what they stand for on key issues like this? I know you believe this to be strategy, and it will be, but I don't think it's the strategy you believe it to be. Your view is that they have their plans and policies and that we can trust them to pop up with those at the right moment and reveal that they've been fully in step with us all along. Right?

 

What if they're just seeing which way the wind blows? That's what I think they're doing. And the more we shut up, the less the wind blows our way. They are career politicians and Labour in particular has spent the past 12 years reacting to things rather than getting out ahead of anything. Trust has already been broken, it's difficult to ignore that.

[scoobos 298]

45 minutes ago, Craig said:

The biggest Tory majority to be overturned in a parliamentary election ever, apparently. 

Word going round that Downden resigned before he was booted out in a reshuffle. So I take Patel's words about him with a massive pinch of salt. She's an absolute axis of evil, that one.

She was too frightened to attend QT last night though, for a moment I nearly felt sorry for her mate's Auntie who attended instead "Home Office Minister".

Question - who has the talent and ability in the Conservative party to lead it , other than Boris Johnson?

Laughs "oh my , not me, certainly not me"


you said it love...

[Renton 21627]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Does it ever bother you that we don't know what they stand for on key issues like this? I know you believe this to be strategy, and it will be, but I don't think it's the strategy you believe it to be. Your view is that they have their plans and policies and that we can trust them to pop up with those at the right moment and reveal that they've been fully in step with us all along. Right?

 

What if they're just seeing which way the wind blows? That's what I think they're doing. And the more we shut up, the less the wind blows our way. They are career politicians and Labour in particular has spent the past 12 years reacting to things rather than getting out ahead of anything. Trust has already been broken, it's difficult to ignore that.

 

Well PR hasn't even entered the arena as a thing yet, but it would definitely be weaponised by the tories. I think a coalition is the only chance of getting it through, although you have to think it wouldn't pass a referendum anyway. I simply don't understand why people don't understand we don't even live in a real democracy without it. So I despair there a bit.

 

But anyway, I say you need to wait for the manifesto. You know that this party is slightly left of centre, and I would expect policies built around that axis, which personally suits me, as I was happy under Blair. If you can't live with that, then so be it, but once again it outlines the importance of PR ove EU membership. Every vote should count and you should have the right to be represented. 

[scoobos 298]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

Does it ever bother you that we don't know what they stand for on key issues like this? I know you believe this to be strategy, and it will be, but I don't think it's the strategy you believe it to be. Your view is that they have their plans and policies and that we can trust them to pop up with those at the right moment and reveal that they've been fully in step with us all along. Right?

 

What if they're just seeing which way the wind blows? That's what I think they're doing. And the more we shut up, the less the wind blows our way. They are career politicians and Labour in particular has spent the past 12 years reacting to things rather than getting out ahead of anything. Trust has already been broken, it's difficult to ignore that.

I was just rowing with the Liberal Democrat PR team about this a few months ago - get a frickin Manifesto up on your website and let people know , don't just react to issues of the day.

We will do one closer to the time, because laying it out now either helps the party in power , or lets them know what they have to attack. 

Meanwhile, if you go to their website:

This unfortunately named URL:
https://www.libdems.org/plan 

 

To me, being critical (and I'm a supporter) , this sends the worst possible message that they dont have a plan - they can't even maintain their website.

2019 Manifesto.

They still haven't changed it and I whine monthly at them, along with a few others. 

Finally, tin foil hat piece - but I've always been a bit sceptical since the Introduction of the Behavioural Insights Team , that the government has too much power to influence and control, if we are going to do this stuff for "sending better public health messages" then NHS Digital should do it, not a government in power. Also, I've been highly suspicious of "advisors" to competing parties - during the last GE - is it co-incidence that the advisors they hired gave them the worst possible advice ever? Like "Stop Brexit" for the libs and "Radio silence" for the Labour party? (That last bit is paranoid I know, but it doesn't stop this nagging feeling, who are these advisors?)