Politics

[Alex 34725]

2 minutes ago, NJS said:

When they announced the Newcastle result for the EU referendum, even though remain won, the margin suggested it was time to worry. 

 

You can call me negative if you like but Wakefield looks the same to me - as suggested by Gemmill's post above. 

Not sure I agree given the swing / share 

of the vote. The issue for me is the low turnout allowing for a lot of unknowns. 

[Gemmill 44134]

 

 

Patel tossing an absolute word salad on Times Radio.

 

Worth clicking to get the rest of it. 

 

 

[NJS 4355]

3 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

Sorry, are you saying you think this is a bad result for Labour? If so, which post of mind would support that view? 

Not bad - just not as fantastic as hoped and suggestive of a hung parliament in line with polling. 

 

I would be very surprised if Labour win a majority at the next election but they need to come closer to that than this and some of the narrower polls suggest - I noted someone posted the one with a 12 pont lead but not the one where it had narrowed to two. 

 

Take the Johnson factor out and I'm worried. 

[Rayvin 5151]

6 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

There is one element to this I think your are forgetting or dismissing. We're used to arguing in a bubble in this country, scarcely even acknowledging their are third parties in all this, namely the EU and EFTA. We can't just do a 180 and decide to rejoin, there is absolutely no guarantee every EU state would agree to this and indeed I don't think France would for one. EFTA countries have already ruled out membership I believe and as far as I know there is no other way of accessing the EEA (SM). So for pragmatic reasons alone, I believe we would have to tread slowly and become trusted again within the frameworks of the current deal before jrejoining was ever a possibility. We would also require a referendum with a super majority imo. We are miles from that.

 

The bar isn't being lowered, it si being incrementally raised by labour. The bar will only be lowered with another tory victory which would be catastrophic. By all means, don't vote for Labour if you can't hold your nose to the present situation, but then don't complain about the result.

 

Still waiting for @NJS to show me when Blair said there was no place for unions in the 21st century btw. 

 

I'm not expecting Labour to saunter into power and immediately restore us to the EU. I am demanding truth. What concerns me about Labour, I suppose more than anything, is that they haven't learned their lesson from 2010. They are still running scared of the right wing press, amending policy in response to it, and attempting to ride of the coat tails of narratives they didn't create and don't believe in.

 

As long as they do that, they will simply never be able to be as effective and convincing as the Tories can be over the long term. I don't think we have to be ashamed of the fact that we have the views we do. I don't think we are wrong. It depresses me that we have to go through this farce and it genuinely worries me for the future, because it means that the right is setting the agenda. As they did with Brexit and austerity.

 

As for the GE, I'm not sure how I'd react if Labour lose but I guarantee you that it wont come down to my vote which will be utterly meaningless wherever I cast it, as it always has been. This is bigger than the next GE though - you said yourself this could run on for the rest of our working lives. When is the right time to try and improve that? How much of our lives do we waste placating idiots? I just can't man.

[Renton 21061]

9 minutes ago, NJS said:

I was speaking figuratively about the people around him who had no interest in the unions other than finance and conference votes. 

 

 

 

So no individual said this, it's really just your projection? Alright. 

[NJS 4355]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

I'm not expecting Labour to saunter into power and immediately restore us to the EU. I am demanding truth. What concerns me about Labour, I suppose more than anything, is that they haven't learned their lesson from 2010. They are still running scared of the right wing press, amending policy in response to it, and attempting to ride of the coat tails of narratives they didn't create and don't believe in.

 

As long as they do that, they will simply never be able to be as effective and convincing as the Tories can be over the long term. I don't think we have to be ashamed of the fact that we have the views we do. I don't think we are wrong. It depresses me that we have to go through this farce and it genuinely worries me for the future, because it means that the right is setting the agenda. As they did with Brexit and austerity.

 

As for the GE, I'm not sure how I'd react if Labour lose but I guarantee you that it wont come down to my vote which will be utterly meaningless wherever I cast it, as it always has been. This is bigger than the next GE though - you said yourself this could run on for the rest of our working lives. When is the right time to try and improve that? How much of our lives do we waste placating idiots? I just can't man.

Starmer has been cosying up to the press recently but should learn from the Curry thing that they'll turn on him in an instant. 

[Renton 21061]

13 minutes ago, NJS said:

When they announced the Newcastle result for the EU referendum, even though remain won, the margin suggested it was time to worry. 

 

You can call me negative if you like but Wakefield looks the same to me - as suggested by Gemmill's post above. 

 

Wasn't it the biggest swing since Blair vs. Major?

[Alex 34725]

8 minutes ago, NJS said:

Starmer has been cosying up to the press recently but should learn from the Curry thing that they'll turn on him in an instant. 

He has to though (I know they’re cunts). Corbyn’s refusal to play the game was a massive part of his demise. We’ve seen all the stuff about how popular his policies were in focus groups etc. but he wasn’t trusted to deliver them. And that was in large part because the press could say what they want in the vacuum imo

Edited June 24, 2022 by Alex

[Meenzer 15347]

 

[Renton 21061]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'm not expecting Labour to saunter into power and immediately restore us to the EU. I am demanding truth. What concerns me about Labour, I suppose more than anything, is that they haven't learned their lesson from 2010. They are still running scared of the right wing press, amending policy in response to it, and attempting to ride of the coat tails of narratives they didn't create and don't believe in.

 

As long as they do that, they will simply never be able to be as effective and convincing as the Tories can be over the long term. I don't think we have to be ashamed of the fact that we have the views we do. I don't think we are wrong. It depresses me that we have to go through this farce and it genuinely worries me for the future, because it means that the right is setting the agenda. As they did with Brexit and austerity.

 

As for the GE, I'm not sure how I'd react if Labour lose but I guarantee you that it wont come down to my vote which will be utterly meaningless wherever I cast it, as it always has been. This is bigger than the next GE though - you said yourself this could run on for the rest of our working lives. When is the right time to try and improve that? How much of our lives do we waste placating idiots? I just can't man.

 

Yeah, I understand that. Starmer is way too cautious for me. But honestly, I think a lot of these things will improve once they're in power, and the bigger their majority, the more they can do (or if a coalition PR referendum will be on the cards). I'd judge them then. If Labour can achieve what Lammy set out yesterday, which is not nothing, that would be the first step to rejoining the EEA (as I think you know, I don't personally believe we should rejoin the EU unless we radically change as a country, and I don't think that will happen). It's not ideal, but it's where we are. 

[Rayvin 5151]

Well, my grumbling aside, Labour look like they can win. I'm concerned about what the picture looks like without Johnson - who will surely not make it to the next GE - but the signs are decent if we can maintain an electoral pact.

 

I've no idea where we go from there really but I hope it's not led by the Mail and friends.

[Gemmill 44134]

13 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Wasn't it the biggest swing since Blair vs. Major?

 

Yep. 

[Gemmill 44134]

If nothing else, this has absolutely underlined the fact that you don't win elections by humping bairns. 

[Renton 21061]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Well, my grumbling aside, Labour look like they can win. I'm concerned about what the picture looks like without Johnson - who will surely not make it to the next GE - but the signs are decent if we can maintain an electoral pact.

 

I've no idea where we go from there really but I hope it's not led by the Mail and friends.

 

Well obviously the problem the tories have got is the purge Johnson took has now bitten them on the arse. There are no good sucessors there, in the cabinet at least. I would rank the top 10 on the labour benches above theior best candidate, which is one reason I'm fairly sanguine about Starmer's fate. 

[Gemmill 44134]

I think Beth Rigby his class but whenever I see her on telly she always seems likes she's being interrupted during the middle of a single life-long sigh.

 

It's possibly why I like her so much. 

[Rayvin 5151]

Aye I was talking to a friend about Labour's front bench competence the other day and I have to agree, there is genuine strength there.

 

Although one person that threw me off a bit was Rachel Reeves. I'm not sure I've heard her name come up at all, and yet she's shadow chancellor. I found that pretty odd tbh but maybe I just haven't paid enough attention.

 

But Starmer, Cooper, Lammy, etc. There's solidity there.

 

[Gemmill 44134]

I always think Reeve talks like a deaf person. 

 

Not a nice thing to say, but we're all used to that. 

[Renton 21061]

Just now, Rayvin said:

Aye I was talking to a friend about Labour's front bench competence the other day and I have to agree, there is genuine strength there.

 

Although one person that threw me off a bit was Rachel Reeves. I'm not sure I've heard her name come up at all, and yet she's shadow chancellor. I found that pretty odd tbh but maybe I just haven't paid enough attention.

 

But Starmer, Cooper, Lammy, etc. There's solidity there.

 

 

Reeves isn't great and isn't a contender. For once I agree with Gemmill and think a Streeting/Nandy combo could be superb if it comes to it. Get the king of the north back too. 

[NJS 4355]

19 minutes ago, Alex said:

He has to though (I know they’re cunts). Corbyn’s refusal to play the game was a massive part of his demise. We’ve seen all the stuff about how popular his policies were in focus groups etc. but he wasn’t trusted to deliver them. And that was in large part because the press could say what they want in the vacuum imo

I agree but I don't think there's a game Corbyn could have played that would have got them on side - he had his failings but too many people decided they couldn't allow any kind of serious change to this country. 

[Gemmill 44134]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

Reeves isn't great and isn't a contender. For once I agree with Gemmill and think a Streeting/Nandy combo could be superb if it comes to it. Get the king of the north back too. 

 

Proof that even a G-string can be in tune some of the time. 

[The Fish 10674]

8 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

I always think Reeve talks like a deaf person. 

 

Not a nice thing to say, but we're all used to that. 

Hear, Hear

[Renton 21061]

6 minutes ago, NJS said:

I agree but I don't think there's a game Corbyn could have played that would have got them on side - he had his failings but too many people decided they couldn't allow any kind of serious change to this country. 

 

I'll be honest, I've always hated him. Spent his entire career spouting bollocks from the sidelines and voting againsy his own government. An intellectual pygmy and long-term brexiter. Hardly fit to be an MP let alone leader of the Labour party.

I still voted for him, twice. That's what grown ups have to do sometimes.   

[Gemmill 44134]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

 

I still voted for him, twice. That's what grown ups have to do sometimes.   

 

 

[ewerk 30167]

27 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

If nothing else, this has absolutely underlined the fact that you don't win elections by humping bairns. 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by ewerk

[Rayvin 5151]

7 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I'll be honest, I've always hated him. Spent his entire career spouting bollocks from the sidelines and voting againsy his own government. An intellectual pygmy and long-term brexiter. Hardly fit to be an MP let alone leader of the Labour party.

I still voted for him, twice. That's what grown ups have to do sometimes.   

 

You presumably mostly agreed with his policies though. Voting for policies, not people, I would argue is more grown up