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Renton

Renton 21627

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I disagree with this. At some point you have to win the argument or everything will just keep getting worse

 

Do it once you're in power maybe? Just avoid any mention at all of the EU in the manifesto. 

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The thing with the trans issue is it’s another thing they’ve tried to weaponise to play to their base. Even in the wake of this, another entirely avoidable and entirely of their own making PR disaster

Renton
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I'm just going to land this here. Two years ago I was in a desperate place, I reached out and for some reason you were there and really helped me. We don't see eye to eye on everything Rayvin but you

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Rayvin

Rayvin 5223

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

I think you're being reductive.

 

Labour isn't likely to fully privatise the NHS and it's such a anathema for the British public to propose it, not even these Tories would run on it. 

 

What Renton is saying (and forgive me if I get this wrong) is that, right now, in this non-hypothetical reality whoever has the best chance to defeat these Tories should be voted for. If 50 yrs into the future, Labour has lurched as far to the left as these Tories have done to the right, and the Tories actually occupy a left-leaning centre position, cyber-Renton may actually vote for them.

 

You've missed my point and I honestly just don't have the energy to open this up to arguing with another person. No disrespect, but what you've just argued is not a pushback on what I said.

 

14 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

You're resorting to quite ridiculous hypthetical arguments to justify your frankly ludicrous argument here. Lets not deal in hypotheticals. Lets look at the real options in front of us and vote on which we would prefer. If you'd prefer someone else to Johnson, vote against him (for whoever has the best chance of defeating the conservatives in your seat). You're either unaware of the extremely perilous position this country is in or you've given up, I suspect the latter. 

 

Why won't we deal in hypotheticals, because it makes the broad sweeping statements about how everyone should vote Labour even if its only a slight improvement actually look a bit stupid? I introduced hypotheticals in an attempt to capture an issue that you feel as strongly about as I do with Brexit. So that you could potentially understand why your solution to me is not a good one. This does not appear to have worked but as far as I can see mate, your position is one of constant dynamic change. The bar gets lowered, you go down with it, still hoping that if you can just get under it once we'll be able to push up again. Meanwhile, the only current truth with this is... the bar is getting lower.

 

The bar has dropped lower than I'm willing to go without compromising more or less everything I believe in. Who are you, I mean any of you really, to tell me that this is a stupid position? You're exactly the same as me about different issues. Your specific configuration of issues that you would stop supporting Labour over hasn't come up yet. How nice that must be. It exists though, and because it exists, I really can't see anything other than blind hypocrisy in this conversation.

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Gemmill

Gemmill 44900

Posted
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5 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I disagree with this. At some point you have to win the argument or everything will just keep getting worse

 

That argument is unwinnable in this version of Britain. We've got people genuinely believing that these strikes are the fault of Labour because of a day of social media lies from Tory MPs and the Mail. 

 

If the pandemic and the war in Ukraine hadn't happened, you MIGHT be able to take this on, but at the minute it's too easy to blame both those things.

 

The country is already brainwashed, the BBC won't say a bad word about Brexit, the Bank of England won't even use the word. There's no way Labour should take this on. It would be the mother of all own goals. 

 

 

 

 

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NJS

NJS 4386

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

Do it once you're in power maybe? Just avoid any mention at all of the EU in the manifesto. 

As I keep saying they won't do anything in power that threatens that power. 

 

Reversing withdrawal from the HRA, the protest bill, any thought of even discussing the SM or CU?  - all completely unacceptable to the press and his gammon focus groups so absolutely no chance of them happening. 

 

Just like Blair - a few half-decent tinkerings mixed with cuntishness like ATOS is the best we're now allowed - any thought of true change has been excluded from even being discussed as the migration of wealth from poor to rich continues. 

 

That's the future. 

 

 

 

 

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Dr Gloom

Dr Gloom 21924

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I disagree with this. At some point you have to win the argument or everything will just keep getting worse

 

corbyn "won the argument" last time and look where that got us

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spongebob toonpants

spongebob toonpants 3997

Posted
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2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

corbyn "won the argument" last time and look where that got us

Well thats just not true is it. He wasn't capable of winning the argument because he was  a terrible politician and leader.

And he followed the don't mention the EU doctrine to the letter and look where that got us

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Dr Gloom

Dr Gloom 21924

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Just now, Gemmill said:

 

Morgan genuinely thinking he's got the upper hand there, as his career circles the drain. 

 

the way he posts the viewing numbers on the rare days when his show has better ratings than gb news and sky is so desperate, it's delicious. 

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Rayvin

Rayvin 5223

Posted
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7 minutes ago, Tom said:

 

 

I might vote green unless Labour's manifesto represents my personal ideology 100% 🙃🙃🙃🙃

 

 

 

Are Labour going to be reversing this on their manifesto, do you think?

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Rayvin

Rayvin 5223

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1 minute ago, Tom said:

SAFETY WINK for fucks sake :lol: 

 

To be fair, it is quite clear that for all the safety winks in the world, that is a prevailing view on here :lol: It amuses me sometimes to watch people make these comments that clearly apply to other posters (I do this too tbf, in fact this may be an example of it) without actually naming them specifically.

 

I'm fine though, I knew what was going to happen here when I went into this discussion ;) I think it comes down to the sense of scale really - what concerns you more, the Tories or the trend. For me, I think it's the latter.

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spongebob toonpants

spongebob toonpants 3997

Posted
Posted
Just now, Rayvin said:

 

To be fair, it is quite clear that for all the safety winks in the world, that is a prevailing view on here :lol: It amuses me sometimes to watch people make these comments that clearly apply to other posters (I do this too tbf, in fact this may be an example of it) without actually naming them specifically.

 

I'm fine though, I knew what was going to happen here when I went into this discussion ;) I think it comes down to the sense of scale really - what concerns you more, the Tories or the trend. For me, I think it's the latter.

I think we all want the same outcome (mostly)  just disagree how to achieve it

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Rayvin

Rayvin 5223

Posted
Posted
Just now, spongebob toonpants said:

I think we all want the same outcome (mostly)  just disagree how to achieve it

 

I believe this too - but I agree with you on this mainly in that at some point someone needs to stand up and make case for what we actually believe in. We do need to win that argument at some stage. I think what others here seem to advocate for is a world where we win power and deliver what we believe in by stealth and idk, maybe that's the right play. But we did that with Blair and for all the progress made under new Labour, things are now worse than I've ever seen them. I think we could perhaps have done with cementing and defending our argument better instead of immediately abandoning it and running in fear of the right wing press.

 

Who will relentlessly hound and attack Labour with or without Labour even doing anything. As we can see.

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Renton

Renton 21627

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Gemmill said:

 

Might not be a bad thing. Give Streeting a chance. 

 

"Oh, Nandy
Well, you came
And you gave without taking
But I sent you away
Oh, Nandy
Well, you kissed me
And stopped me from shaking
But I need Streeting today
Oh, Nandy" 

 

barry manilow february GIF

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