Politics

[Renton 21627]

Pragmatism > Idealism, every time. 

[Tom 14011]

3 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

Aye. We need people to actively participate in vote swap schemes, and to hold their nose and vote whatever keeps the Tories out in their constituency. 

 

You can't on the one hand be appalled at the fucking state of the country and exclaim "how are they getting away with this!? What is wrong with the people of this country?!" and in the next breath say "Well I'm not voting for the most viable alternative until they personally twerk to my tune". 

Yep, sadly I've been saying this to people for a very long time but their privilege comes out and they can only think of themselves. 
 

Its fucking idiot and that's how we've ended up with the current kleptocratic morons. 

[Renton 21627]

I won't celebrate Newcastle United until we win the Champions league. Fuck the league cup, I wouldn't even smile if we won that. 

[Renton 21627]

There's bound to be more industrial action heading into autumn. Got to say, after lock down (and witnessing first hand how hard it is to educate the little shits), there is no professional group I respect more than teachers. I'd give them 10% straight away.

 

 

 

[ewerk 30620]

I mean what the actual fuck?

 

 

[Gemmill 44900]

And he's supposedly one of the good ones. They're all fucking shitbags. 

[ewerk 30620]

This is the same cunt who complained that he'd be 'watching the pennies' if MPs didn't get a 10% pay rise while the rest of the public sector was restricted to 1%.

[Gemmill 44900]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

There's bound to be more industrial action heading into autumn. Got to say, after lock down (and witnessing first hand how hard it is to educate the little shits), there is no professional group I respect more than teachers. I'd give them 10% straight away.

 

 

 

 

My lass is quitting later this year after 23 years as a teacher. 

[Gemmill 44900]

4 minutes ago, ewerk said:

I mean what the actual fuck?

 

 

 

It's HIS fucking boss that's enjoying the self inflicted distraction. 

[Renton 21627]

We're the only country in Europe standing up to Putin? Oh go fuck yourself mate, another tory shit head. 

[Renton 21627]

2 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

My lass is quitting later this year after 23 years as a teacher. 

 

This is what I'm scared of, loss of experienced teachers. I don't blame her, teacher's have been treated like shit since 2010. Can't quite remember what happened that year. 

[Rayvin 5223]

29 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Oh come on man. This is fucking ridiculous. No manifesto has been released yet. And you really think a Starmer government would be as bad as the current lot except for maybe one good policy. Really? Because from where I am, Labour's front benches are full of talented, competent, and as far as I am aware, not corrupt, people. If for nothing else surely you recognise they would be infinitely more competent than the Johnson party and not constantly stoking culture wars and wedge issues? You're lost to me! 

 

 

Renton man, that's not what I said. I was attempting to portray my understanding of your position. That if Labour is even just slightly better than the Tories, even in just a single policy, we should vote for them. That must be your view because otherwise we're agreeing that there is a line in the sand for people on a personal level, for what they will and won't vote for, but that you think my line is wrong - and presumably that your line is right. And I mean, ok, but that's an entirely subjective view.

 

My position is: I cannot vote for something which crosses certain lines

 

Your position is: You can vote for anything as long as it is even slightly better than the Tories.

 

That is what you are currently arguing for, and that's fine, but that's a really zealous attachment to pragmatism. A purist attachment, I would argue.

[Gemmill 44900]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

This is what I'm scared of, loss of experienced teachers. I don't blame her, teacher's have been treated like shit since 2010. Can't quite remember what happened that year. 

 

Aye she used to love it. Fucking hates it now. She's tried changing schools to see if that would help, but school budgets are so tight that if you're up against a newly qualified teacher they'll take them cos they can pay them peanuts. Experience no longer matters, which speaks to your point. 

 

So it's game over for teaching. There's YouTube channels dedicated to how to escape from teaching in this country man. 

[Toonpack 9432]

Anyone who doesn't vote for who is the best placed to win against these cunts is voting for them.

[ewerk 30620]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Renton man, that's not what I said. I was attempting to portray my understanding of your position. That if Labour is even just slightly better than the Tories, even in just a single policy, we should vote for them. That must be your view because otherwise we're agreeing that there is a line in the sand for people on a personal level, for what they will and won't vote for, but that you think my line is wrong - and presumably that your line is right. And I mean, ok, but that's an entirely subjective view.

 

My position is: I cannot vote for something which crosses certain lines

 

Your position is: You can vote for anything as long as it is even slightly better than the Tories.

 

That is what you are currently arguing for, and that's fine, but that's a really zealous attachment to pragmatism. A purist attachment, I would argue.

 

I look at it more as utilitarianism. Basically voting to get the Tories out is the best thing for the people of this country. If your vote is inconsequential in your constituency then vote however you feel but if it's likely to have any effect then vote for whoever is likely to defeat the Tory candidate.

[Tom 14011]

2 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

Anyone who doesn't vote for who is the best placed to win against these cunts is voting for them.

Yep. 
 

 

[Renton 21627]

12 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

that's a really zealous attachment to pragmatism

 Well that's a complete oxymoron. But its not like the differences between Starmer's labour and Johnson's tories are slight, is it? The differences are fucking huge. I'd argue bigger than any election in history personally. If you can't see this, and don't recognise the probably irreversible damage another Johnson term would do (like Trump in the US), then I give up. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Hypothetical - the Tories decide to fully privatise the NHS. Goes into their next manifesto. Labour take up the same position. Do we still vote for them because they're also offering free school meals? Or do we dig our heels in because otherwise we are consenting to losing the NHS? It happens either way, but if we vote Labour there is no pressure applied to defend it, so politicians believe that they can avoid returning to the issue - it's too divisive, not a vote winner.

 

Alternative: The Tories start deporting people to Rwanda as part of some fucked up policy on handling immigration. Polls well though. Labour put that in too. Still offering free school meals though.

 

Before anyone comes jumping down my throat, I am aware that Labour have not done these things, but I am asking you honestly if your pragmatism would still have you voting Labour if they did. Because if not, you're right where I am fucking am just on different issues. And even if you do hold true to your pragmatism in this scenario - which I am left to assume takes us right the way through to full on fascism as long as it comes with free school meals, then you must surely be able to see at the very least how this is a bit of a difficult fucking pill to swallow for anyone who really, deeply cares about an issue that Labour have fucking abandoned.

 

-mic drop-

[Gemmill 44900]

2 hours ago, Renton said:

Fucking Labour, ruining the country again.

 

 

 

This is why Starmer can't be the one to say that Brexit isn't working. As long as papers like this dominate, and as long as Johnson can ring papers up and have stories pulled, this country will not be ready for that conversation. 

[Rayvin 5223]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

 Well that's a complete oxymoron. But its not like the differences between Starmer's labour and Johnson's tories are slight, is it? The differences are fucking huge. I'd argue bigger than any election in history personally. If you can't see this, and don't recognise the probably irreversible damage another Johnson term would do (like Trump in the US), then I give up. 

 

It doesn't matter whether the differences are slight, that's not your position. Your position is that pragmatism trumps everything. You literally posted that.

 

We can have that discussion, but that's not the one we're having. I'm being told by everyone here that I have to vote for them no matter what as long as they are slightly better.

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

I'd still vote anti Tory even if the opposition weren't worth voting for is my admittedly self contradictory position. I've voted in every single vote I've been eligible for for 42 years.

 

At this point though I'm not sure the argument that alternative is worse is an argument that holds up though. It's the same argument that was used to get Biden in in America and that's not exactly going well

If you don't stand with the workers what's the point of Labour. They are barely a party of the left anymore

 

We are basically following the US into having  one extreme Nationalist party and an old school one nation Tory party

 

I think we've lost basically under the present system. We are the boiled frog. Maybe its time to have the whole thing burn and see what rises from the ashes

 

I like this bloke though, we need more like him

 

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by spongebob toonpants
Too fucking old to know how long I've been voting

[The Fish 10858]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Hypothetical - the Tories decide to fully privatise the NHS. Goes into their next manifesto. Labour take up the same position. Do we still vote for them because they're also offering free school meals? Or do we dig our heels in because otherwise we are consenting to losing the NHS? It happens either way, but if we vote Labour there is no pressure applied to defend it, so politicians believe that they can avoid returning to the issue - it's too divisive, not a vote winner.

 

Alernative: The Tories start deporting people to Rwanda as part of some fucked up policy on handling immigration. Polls well though. Labour put that in too. Still offering free school meals though.

 

Before anyone comes jumping down my throat, I am aware that Labour have not done these things, but I am asking you honestly if your pragmatism would still have you voting Labour if they did. Because if not, you're right where I am fucking am just on different issues. And even if you do hold true to your pragmatism in this scenario - which I am left to assume takes us right the way through to full on fascism as long as it comes with free school meals, then you must surely be able to see at the very least how this is a bit of a difficult fucking pill to swallow for anyone who really, deeply cares about an issue that Labour have fucking abandoned.

 

-mic drop-

 

I think you're being reductive.

 

Labour isn't likely to fully privatise the NHS and it's such a anathema for the British public to propose it, not even these Tories would run on it. 

 

What Renton is saying (and forgive me if I get this wrong) is that, right now, in this non-hypothetical reality whoever has the best chance to defeat these Tories should be voted for. If 50 yrs into the future, Labour has lurched as far to the left as these Tories have done to the right, and the Tories actually occupy a left-leaning centre position, cyber-Renton may actually vote for them.

[Renton 21627]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Hypothetical - the Tories decide to fully privatise the NHS. Goes into their next manifesto. Labour take up the same position. Do we still vote for them because they're also offering free school meals? Or do we dig our heels in because otherwise we are consenting to losing the NHS? It happens either way, but if we vote Labour there is no pressure applied to defend it, so politicians believe that they can avoid returning to the issue - it's too divisive, not a vote winner.

 

Alernative: The Tories start deporting people to Rwanda as part of some fucked up policy on handling immigration. Polls well though. Labour put that in too. Still offering free school meals though.

 

Before anyone comes jumping down my throat, I am aware that Labour have not done these things, but I am asking you honestly if your pragmatism would still have you voting Labour if they did. Because if not, you're right where I am fucking am just on different issues. And even if you do hold true to your pragmatism in this scenario - which I am left to assume takes us right the way through to full on fascism as long as it comes with free school meals, then you must surely be able to see at the very least how this is a bit of a difficult fucking pill to swallow for anyone who really, deeply cares about an issue that Labour have fucking abandoned.

 

-mic drop-

 

You're resorting to quite ridiculous hypthetical arguments to justify your frankly ludicrous argument here. Lets not deal in hypotheticals. Lets look at the real options in front of us and vote on which we would prefer. If you'd prefer someone else to Johnson, vote against him (for whoever has the best chance of defeating the conservatives in your seat). You're either unaware of the extremely perilous position this country is in or you've given up, I suspect the latter. 

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

8 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

This is why Starmer can't be the one to say that Brexit isn't working. As long as papers like this dominate, and as long as Johnson can ring papers up and have stories pulled, this country will not be ready for that conversation. 

I disagree with this. At some point you have to win the argument or everything will just keep getting worse

Edited June 22, 2022 by spongebob toonpants
Too fucking old to know how too spell either

[Renton 21627]

3 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I'd still vote anti Tory even if the opposition weren't worth voting for is my admittedly self contradictory position. I've voted in every single vote I've been eligible for for 32 years.

 

At this point though I'm not sure the argument that alternative is worse is an argument that holds up though. It's the same argument that was used to get Biden in in America and that's not exactly going well

If you don't stand with the workers what's the point of Labour. They are barely a party of the left anymore

 

We are basically following the US into having  one extreme Nationalist party and an old school one nation Tory party

 

I think we've lost basically under the present system. We are the boiled frog. Maybe its time to have the whole thing burn and see what rises from the ashes

 

I like this bloke though, we need more like him

 

 

 

He's excellent although I'd like to fact check what he says, especially the 500 miilion profit quote. I was under the impression virtually every railway in the world is subsidised? Also he obviously has a different role to Starmer, he doesn't have to worry about being elected by the whole country. He would be unelectable in that context (rightly or wrongly).