Politics

[Renton 21627]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

Do you mean me specifically? I know I'm not getting what I want, I said as much several posts back. This discussion isn't about Europe on my end, Labour aren't ready to tackle that issue because they still believe that they can create a broad church between racist halfwits and urban intellectuals. 

 

The labour front bench is indeed bereft but I'm far more confident that the centre left has a higher number of credible up and comers than the Tories do. And I think mentoring them in could be something Cooper, or someone like her, could achieve.

 

Yeah, just meant Labour will come out with someone much like Starmer, but most likely less competent imo. The party's direction won't change in the way you want it to. It would be disruptive and bad for the UK as a whole imo. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Renton said:

 

Yeah, just meant Labour will come out with someone much like Starmer, but most likely less competent imo. The party's direction won't change in the way you want it to. It would be disruptive and bad for the UK as a whole imo. 

 

I think at this point I wouldn't say I want Labour to change like some kind of hostile takeover, I simply have to stand apart from them so that they understand the consequence of what they have chosen, in the hope that one day, that is sufficient to form part of a wider conversation about how we move back to sanity. By endorsing their current policies on Brexit, all I am telling them is that they can take my vote for granted while wooing the feckless. They can't take my vote for granted, and that message is sent even if I'm completely irrelevant in the overall scheme of things.

 

They ceased to be 'my party' at that moment, and are now simply the 'better than the Tories' party. They can change, or not, if they like.

[Rayvin 5223]

Although as I've said before, if they put electoral reform back on the radar then that would motivate me to cross the line.

[Renton 21627]

Just now, Rayvin said:

Although as I've said before, if they put electoral reform back on the radar then that would motivate me to cross the line.

 

This is by far my biggest frustration, and has been since before Blair even. I think the next 10 years we are going to experience significant events that will shake this country to the core, then who knows? Losing Scotland and NI are the most obvious, but I suspect there will be other shocks. Can you imagine England literally surrounded by EU countries or EFTA affiliates in the future? Doesn't seem tenable does it? Anyway, guess I'm trying to say, our future will be determined by events we don't have much control over. I'm getting to an age where I just accept it now. Que sera. 

[Rayvin 5223]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

This is by far my biggest frustration, and has been since before Blair even. I think the next 10 years we are going to experience significant events that will shake this country to the core, then who knows? Losing Scotland and NI are the most obvious, but I suspect there will be other shocks. Can you imagine England literally surrounded by EU countries or EFTA affiliates in the future? Doesn't seem tenable does it? Anyway, guess I'm trying to say, our future will be determined by events we don't have much control over. I'm getting to an age where I just accept it now. Que sera. 

 

I suppose I accept it too in a way - I don't think we'll rejoin the EU short of some incredible event like a full scale invasion of the continent by Russia - I'm just not prepared to pretend it's not actively fucking us so that the blind can sleep better at night. That's a good point you make though about England being alone and surrounded by the EU though, who knows the impact of that over time.

 

If we don't get electoral reform before Scotland goes, I don't think we'll ever get it. Frankly I don't think we'll get any left of centre party in power again should that happen.

[Renton 21627]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I suppose I accept it too in a way - I don't think we'll rejoin the EU short of some incredible event like a full scale invasion of the continent by Russia - I'm just not prepared to pretend it's not actively fucking us so that the blind can sleep better at night. That's a good point you make though about England being alone and surrounded by the EU though, who knows the impact of that over time.

 

If we don't get electoral reform before Scotland goes, I don't think we'll ever get it. Frankly I don't think we'll get any left of centre party in power again should that happen.

 

Agreed. The problem is that political parties of all colours put their (perceived) self interest above that of the country. Particularly frustrating for Labour, because I expect better from them than the tories, but also because I just think they are wrong on this and actually PR is also in their own self interest. We can't move on until we have electoral reform, but I agree it will never happen. It's sheer madness. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Beyond just electoral reform, I would love to see a political party of any stripe concern itself with long term planning for the future. I know it's not a vote winner in the here and now, but as a society it's completely what we should be trying to keep in focus. Climate change is a very obvious example of something that needs more serious effort than it has received, but I am constantly angered by that example of Rishi Sunak denying the Education department £15bn to help those children who have fallen behind under the pandemic, despite being told that the cost of not providing it was something like £300bn in the longer term.

 

"Not my problem" needs removing from all political mentalities.

[PaddockLad 17281]

If he gets a PCN he’s screwed anyway so…

 

 

[Renton 21627]

11 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

If he gets a PCN he’s screwed anyway so…

 

 

 

 

Exactly. 

[Renton 21627]

14 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Beyond just electoral reform, I would love to see a political party of any stripe concern itself with long term planning for the future. I know it's not a vote winner in the here and now, but as a society it's completely what we should be trying to keep in focus. Climate change is a very obvious example of something that needs more serious effort than it has received, but I am constantly angered by that example of Rishi Sunak denying the Education department £15bn to help those children who have fallen behind under the pandemic, despite being told that the cost of not providing it was something like £300bn in the longer term.

 

"Not my problem" needs removing from all political mentalities.

 

I think electoral reform would facilitate long-term strategic planning. FTP doesn't allow for it, certainly. 

[Tom 14011]

 

 

 

[Gemmill 44900]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

 

 

 

 

Keep the fucking rats on message cos some of the thick fucks can't even work out exactly what their own game is here. 

[Rayvin 5223]

I think they thought they could call his bluff and prove that deep down, all politicians are the same. He needs to stick to his guns on this now, leave the public in no doubt who the liars are.

[Renton 21627]

Just now, Rayvin said:

I think they thought they could call his bluff and prove that deep down, all politicians are the same. He needs to stick to his guns on this now, leave the public in no doubt who the liars are.

 

But listening to R5 today, since Starmer called for Johnson to quit whilst he was being investigated and before his FPN, they will still stick to the hypocrite line. But clearly will be very vulnerable/uncomfortable in doing so.

But honestly, the birthday cake thing was fuck all. I am hoping the met have more to dish out (I realise they probably won't). The Grey enquiry too. 

[NJS 4386]

I think it's hilarious that he cozied up to the mail and the sun in the hope of a Blair type endorsement and he and his camp are now whinging at the nasty men who are picking on him. 

 

They were happy with the press when they were shitting on Milliband and Corbyn to a much greater degree of course. 

[ewerk 30620]

1 minute ago, NJS said:

I think it's hilarious that he cozied up to the mail and the sun in the hope of a Blair type endorsement and he and his camp are now whinging at the nasty men who are picking on him. 

 

How exactly did he cosy up to them? Aside from writing a piece for one of them.

[Renton 21627]

4 minutes ago, NJS said:

I think it's hilarious that he cozied up to the mail and the sun in the hope of a Blair type endorsement and he and his camp are now whinging at the nasty men who are picking on him. 

 

They were happy with the press when they were shitting on Milliband and Corbyn to a much greater degree of course. 

 

This is news to me. Have you got a link? A link to where Starmer was happy with the Mail et al. attacking Miliband (really???) and Corbyn would also be appreciated. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by Renton

[NJS 4386]

The fact that he's reportedly shocked by the vitriol directed at him indicates he either thought they'd treat him differently or he's very naive. 

 

Writing an article for The Sun was also a fucking disgrace. 

 

There were plenty of people in the Labour Party who worked against Corbyn (which is why they won't release the Forde report) who are now on his team. 

[Renton 21627]

8 minutes ago, NJS said:

The fact that he's reportedly shocked by the vitriol directed at him indicates he either thought they'd treat him differently or he's very naive. 

 

Writing an article for The Sun was also a fucking disgrace. 

 

There were plenty of people in the Labour Party who worked against Corbyn (which is why they won't release the Forde report) who are now on his team. 

 

There's also a lot of rumours that Beergate was leaked to the Mail by a disgruntled Corbynite. Think this may be related to Pidcock's team but I'll not go further because it's speculation. It's daft making unfounded accusations. Everybody in Labour despises the Sun and Mail but people have different ideas how to manage them. 

[Renton 21627]

 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

I could fully believe it was leaked by a disgruntled Corbynite given everything that went on from the centrist wing during the Corbyn years. That said, if that is the case, it's as fucking stupid a thing to do now as it was then. It's supposed to be a united political party ffs, it cannot continue on with the self harm. 

 

That is actually one decent thing Starmer has managed to do at least, he has seemingly moved the party on somewhat from all the acrimony of his first year. Unless it's all still there and we're just hearing less about it now thanks to all the bigger global events I suppose. I struggle to imagine his successor will have the same sorts of problems to resolve, so that's a plus at the very least.

[Tom 14011]

I know first hand there’s several “Corbynites” on Foy’s staff. Not sure whether they’re the type to leak but they’re almost non stop in the criticism of Starmer. 

 

I actually know one of the lads in the photos so I doubt it was him that leaked it  

[Renton 21627]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I could fully believe it was leaked by a disgruntled Corbynite given everything that went on from the centrist wing during the Corbyn years. That said, if that is the case, it's as fucking stupid a thing to do now as it was then. It's supposed to be a united political party ffs, it cannot continue on with the self harm. 

 

That is actually one decent thing Starmer has managed to do at least, he has seemingly moved the party on somewhat from all the acrimony of his first year. Unless it's all still there and we're just hearing less about it now thanks to all the bigger global events I suppose. I struggle to imagine his successor will have the same sorts of problems to resolve, so that's a plus at the very least.

 

Another reason we need PR, so both factions of the party can be represented separately. I am sick of Labour shooting itself in the foot. Corbyn opposed the leadership constantly, he should have a different platform. The majority of the party ore centre left in outlook. 

[Rayvin 5223]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Another reason we need PR, so both factions of the party can be represented separately. I am sick of Labour shooting itself in the foot. Corbyn opposed the leadership constantly, he should have a different platform. The majority of the party ore centre left in outlook. 

 

Corbyn absolutely should have had a different platform, I fully agree with this. And you're right, PR would permit a far more balanced breakdown of views and less risk of extremist positions taking the floor. Let's not forget that the Tories suffered basically the same thing in Brexit - they were taken over by a pack of far right lunatics who remain in power even now. As much as we need Labour to move on from Corbyn, it's already ahead of the Tories in this respect who haven't even confronted their equivalent problem yet.

 

But yes, Labour is a centre left platform and should remain such. Corbyn and the hard left (and I might well follow them) should have their own platform. It needs PR for this to happen though.

[NJS 4386]

What you call the hard left is pretty much democratic socialism elsewhere - certainly in terms of the 2019 manifesto though I'd agree that didn't go as far as some wanted.

 

I'd call Blair and where Starmer probably wants to be mildly centre right - I sill remember 2005 when the Lib manifesto was a lot more "socialist" than labour's and so far Starmer and Reeves have suggested nothing that isn't "old style" Tory policy.