Politics

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

How is he a personality vaccum? His biography is actually pretty interesting imo. He doesn't have stupid hair, he doesn't bumble and talk absolute shite, he doesn't try to appeal to appeal to every lowest denominator, he doesn't constantly lie and people say "that's Keir being Keir", he isn't an upper class arse clart who people want to doff their caps and pull their forelocks to,  and he doesn't have a working relationship with the tory press (probably the most important point). I don't want a populist PM, I only want a competent one with integrity. He fits the bill for 

Completely agree that he is competent and has integrity, and would make an infinitely better pm than Johnson. He has had a fantastic career and is obviously very intelligent.

For me though he isn't an inspiring public speaker, often seems awkward in interviews and just comes over as pretty dull. Personality vacuum I grant you may be a bit harsh

[ewerk 30620]

Labour were 23 point behind in the polls when he took over, he's turned that into a six point lead. That's an achievement whether you like it or not. Of course Johnson has contributed to his own downfall but Labour have capitalised on that. Of course we'd all like someone with the charisma of Blair but Labour just don't have anyone with that on their benches.

[Rayvin 5223]

8 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Fair enough, you want revolution rather than evolution. Ideally I do too, but how? We all agree for instance that we need constitutional reform and PR going forward, but with 80% of the unions opposing this (fuck knows why) and the tory press and Glooms fair and unbiased MSM on the case, can you see it happening from where we are now? Step one has to be to achieve power, I'll worrry about the next 10 years after that has been achieved. 

 

I agree actually it's unfair of me to put all that at Starmers feet since the whole fucking party is blind to it. But he's not going to do it and it makes me keen to just move him on and try the next one until we finally end up with a leader who can do what needs to be done.

 

And a leader with some charisma, to use CTs word, could indeed manage this. Johnson got Brexit over the line with nothing but charisma and waffle, we live in a brave new world where anything is possible, apparently.

 

I have no expectation of anyone in Labour doing anything differently regarding Brexit incidentally - I don't believe his advisors are as shit hot as you think they are, but they're too far down the path now to change it. It remains my line in the sand but its not really part of my thinking in this discussion.

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

12 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

He will do none of these things because he is somehow delusional enough to imagine that if he wins this GE, it will be because Labour were attractive rather than the Tories were horrific.

I don't think thats fair. His one job is to make Labour electable again after the shitshow that was the 2019 election, which he is doing successfully.

[Renton 21627]

1 minute ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Completely agree that he is competent and has integrity, and would make an infinitely better pm than Johnson. He has had a fantastic career and is obviously very intelligent.

For me though he isn't an inspiring public speaker, often seems awkward in interviews and just comes over as pretty dull. Personality vacuum I grant you may be a bit harsh

 

Fair enough. I think maybe it goes with legal and political training he has had, he is sombre and not humorous in interviews, I admit. Too guarded perhaps. . Look at Bridget as well. Professional, but displaying little personality (but she also has an interesting back story). Then the silver spooned Johnson, handed everything to him on a plate, only previous job being a lying journalist, hardly ever any consequences for his lies, even when he lies to parliament. 

[Rayvin 5223]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Labour were 23 point behind in the polls when he took over, he's turned that into a six point lead. That's an achievement whether you like it or not. Of course Johnson has contributed to his own downfall but Labour have capitalised on that. Of course we'd all like someone with the charisma of Blair but Labour just don't have anyone with that on their benches.

 

Am I the only one who can remember a few months ago when we were all lamenting how the British public just would not budge on the Tories at 40-43%..? Partygate has given him this lead, not contributed to it, delivered it.

[Rayvin 5223]

2 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I don't think thats fair. His one job is to make Labour electable again after the shitshow that was the 2019 election, which he is doing successfully.

 

Who agreed that was his one job? I didn't vote for him for that. That was obviously part of the plan but it wasn't by any stretch the reason he was voted for. He was made leader by the remain wing of Labour membership - who he promptly abandoned, for reasons we all know and have discussed before.

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

Fair enough. I think maybe it goes with legal and political training he has had, he is sombre and not humorous in interviews, I admit. Too guarded perhaps. . Look at Bridget as well. Professional, but displaying little personality (but she also has an interesting back story). Then the silver spooned Johnson, handed everything to him on a plate, only previous job being a lying journalist, hardly ever any consequences for his lies, even when he lies to parliament. 

It's a sad indictment of the public and the media that it's taken this long for people to start seeing Johnson for what he is. I've got one thing in common with @Rayvin I despair for the future

[Renton 21627]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Am I the only one who can remember a few months ago when we were all lamenting how the British public just would not budge on the Tories at 40-43%..? Partygate has given him this lead, not contributed to it, delivered it.

 

Cost of living is much more significant actually imo, and increasingly will be. But Rayvin I'm still confused what you want here, sounds you want a populist to oppose Johnson to shake things up. I am fucking sick of populaist politicians, they are fucking up the world everywhere, whatever creed they claim to follow. 

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Who agreed that was his one job? I didn't vote for him for that. That was obviously part of the plan but it wasn't by any stretch the reason he was voted for. He was made leader by the remain wing of Labour membership - who he promptly abandoned, for reasons we all know and have discussed before.

You can judge what he does when/if he gains power. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant until then

[ewerk 30620]

9 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

And a leader with some charisma, to use CTs word, could indeed manage this.

 

Who is that leader?

[Rayvin 5223]

Not Starmer, that much is clear. Before the discussion is reframed, let's just make sure we are standing where we started - I believe that he has done very little to contribute to Labour's success in the polls and am very concerned that the first serious Tory leader he comes up against will flatten him. The narrative I was arguing against on here was that he was somehow doing this amazing job - now I'm seeing "well who else would we have?" That's not the point I was making, I simply said -beyond my support for Cooper - that he has done very little at all to make me think he'd be a great loss were he to be replaced. At worst we'd stand still.

[Rayvin 5223]

5 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

You can judge what he does when/if he gains power. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant until then

 

Not sure about this one - Corbyn (Miliband too come to think of it) never had this luxury.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

9 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

Who is that leader?

Burnham could be that leader. He’s matured quite a bit from the green MP he used to be.

[ewerk 30620]

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

am very concerned that the first serious Tory leader he comes up against will flatten him. 

 

Why do you think the Tories have held onto Johnson for as long as they have? They don't have any obvious replacement for him. The best thing for Labour would be for the Tories to stick the knife in because when they do you'll really see the dearth of talent on their benches. If Truss get's the gig she'll try to play Starmer at his own game and she really isn't smart enough to do that.

[ewerk 30620]

3 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

Burnham could be that leader. He’s matured quite a bit from the green MP he used to be.

 

He seems fairly happy in the North. He may decide to contest a seat at the next election but I can't see him in parliament before then.

[Renton 21627]

9 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Not sure about this one - Corbyn (Miliband too come to think of it) never had this luxury.

 

They both got at least one GE though didn't they? Corbyn lost two, with one being the worst defeat in living memory. I don't see it being different for Starmer. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, ewerk said:

 

Why do you think the Tories have held onto Johnson for as long as they have? They don't have any obvious replacement for him. The best thing for Labour would be for the Tories to stick the knife in because when they do you'll really see the dearth of talent on their benches. If Truss get's the gig she'll try to play Starmer at his own game and she really isn't smart enough to do that.

 

I actually do believe that Labour can and dare I say it, will win the next election. So much has gone wrong for Johnson that I can actually see it happening. However, that provides an opportunity for the Tories to purge all the Johnsonite cabal and reorganise themselves around something new, while giving them the opportunity to spread the blame for Brexit and the cost of living to Labour, thus diluting the effectiveness of those components as part of a Labour offensive in future. With Scotland likely to fuck off and the electoral boundaries and system being what they are, we may simply not get another chance to fix any of this in most of our lifetimes. Is Starmer the last, best hope we have? I mean really?

[Dr Gloom 21924]

41 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

How is he a personality vaccum? His biography is actually pretty interesting imo. He doesn't have stupid hair, he doesn't bumble and talk absolute shite, he doesn't try to appeal to appeal to every lowest denominator, he doesn't constantly lie and people say "that's Keir being Keir", he isn't an upper class arse clart who people want to doff their caps and pull their forelocks to,  and he doesn't have a working relationship with the tory press (probably the most important point). I don't want a populist PM, I only want a competent one with integrity. He fits the bill for me. 

agree with everything except the hair 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Renton said:

 

They both got at least one GE though didn't they? Corbyn lost two, with one being the worst defeat in living memory. I don't see it being different for Starmer. 

 

Corbyn was hounded and attacked by his own party well before that though. If memory serves he was targeted by a coup within his first year? That's the point really, he was judged as unelectable well before he had a chance to do anything, so Starmer shouldn't expect anything different.

[Renton 21627]

4 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

He seems fairly happy in the North. He may decide to contest a seat at the next election but I can't see him in parliament before then.

 

King of the North!

 

 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

6 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

He seems fairly happy in the North. He may decide to contest a seat at the next election but I can't see him in parliament before then.

I agree. Don’t think he would shift unless Starmer quit. But if that did happen I’m sure he’d be all over it. 

[ewerk 30620]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

However, that provides an opportunity for the Tories to purge all the Johnsonite cabal and reorganise themselves around something new

 

I think you've underestimated just how far down Johnson has dragged the Tories. When Corbyn left it was to the relief of most Labour MPs. Johnson has largely purged the Tory party of moderate voices to the point where Theresa May is seen as being a bit soft. The damage he has inflicted will take a decade to repair imo.

[Renton 21627]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Corbyn was hounded and attacked by his own party well before that though. If memory serves he was targeted by a coup within his first year? That's the point really, he was judged as unelectable well before he had a chance to do anything, so Starmer shouldn't expect anything different.

 

Oh ffs. I can see your point of view on most things, but if you are adopting the line it was the labour party internally that did it in for Corbyn, I'm giving up. Corbyn fought against the leadership of the labour party all his career. Oh fuck it, not getting into this. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, ewerk said:

 

I think you've underestimated just how far down Johnson has dragged the Tories. When Corbyn left it was to the relief of most Labour MPs. Johnson has largely purged the Tory party of moderate voices to the point where Theresa May is seen as being a bit soft. The damage he has inflicted will take a decade to repair imo.

 

It's possible, and I hope you're right, but either way Labour need to have their own vision for how to move forward. If you see this as Starmer steadying the ship before handing over to someone waiting in the wings who is going to cement the party in power and lock out the Tories then fair enough. To go back to where we started though, I still don't think Starmer himself is delivering something here that anyone else mentioned in this conversation around who should take over, wouldn't be capable of.