Politics

[Dr Gloom 21954]

@Alex i thought you were one of the people i clashed with on here about whether the labour antisemitism story was overblown - a media storm etc. forgive me if i got that wrong. even if i am mistaken i still highly recommend the book. 

apologies NJS also if i'm mixing you up with someone else. 

i suppose at times it felt like i was a lone voice, often failing to make some of the points that baddiel nails in this book. other than ewerk, he was in my corner, so i at least i get to shame him for that 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

I recall arguing quite a bit that it was a witch hunt that would never have happened under a centrist leader because it wouldn't have been politically useful for it to have taken place - which I accept now is not an accurate vision of it, though I'm nowhere near being fully on the other side of it - and I recall arguing that the organisation that 'independently' reviewed and condemned Labour under Corbyn was also populated by Tories and racists. Which it is.

 

If this had been a storm about black people, trans people, white people, whatever - I would have said the same things, based on the way in which the whole discussion was weaponised by Corbyn's political enemies and the wider context of pathetic attempts to remove him from power by those who are now doing such a good job of proving what electability looks like.

 

Either way though, I never sought to argue that Jewish people simply didn't matter. They do matter, and this whole debacle must have been both galling and frustrating for them. I just feel like the issue only got the attention it did because of fear of actual change from the powers that be in the press and Labour - I still feel like that. That's how low my trust in the media and Labour's traditional establishment is. That's nothing to do with my perception of Jewish people and everything to do with putting this scenario into the context of everything that was happening around it.

[Rayvin 5223]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

@Alex i thought you were one of the people i clashed with on here about whether the labour antisemitism story was overblown - a media storm etc. forgive me if i got that wrong. even if i am mistaken i still highly recommend the book. 

apologies NJS also if i'm mixing you up with someone else. 

i suppose at times it felt like i was a lone voice, often failing to make some of the points that baddiel nails in this book. other than ewerk, he was in my corner, so i at least i get to shame him for that 

 

 

I feel like the lone voice for my view in almost every political argument I'm involved with in here, which is a key reason I've stopped posting so much - so I completely understand that frustration. But as I said at the time, I do think we were broadly talking at cross purposes for the majority of our discussions around this point.

[Dr Gloom 21954]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I recall arguing quite a bit that it was a witch hunt that would never have happened under a centrist leader because it wouldn't have been politically useful for it to have taken place - which I accept now is not an accurate vision of it, though I'm nowhere near being fully on the other side of it - and I recall arguing that the organisation that 'independently' reviewed and condemned Labour under Corbyn was also populated by Tories and racists. Which it is.

 

If this had been a storm about black people, trans people, white people, whatever - I would have said the same things, based on the way in which the whole discussion was weaponised by Corbyn's political enemies and the wider context of pathetic attempts to remove him from power by those who are now doing such a good job of proving what electability looks like.

 

Either way though, I never sought to argue that Jewish people simply didn't matter. They do matter, and this whole debacle must have been both galling and frustrating for them. I just feel like the issue only got the attention it did because of fear of actual change from the powers that be in the press and Labour - I still feel like that. That's how low my trust in the media and Labour's traditional establishment is. That's nothing to do with my perception of Jewish people and everything to do with putting this scenario into the context of everything that was happening around it.

there's no question that corbyn's political and media opponents weaponised the issue, but it also became an issue under his watch, partially because of this blind spot that exists in his wing of the labour party. 

i do implore you to read the book. he absolutely nails it

[NJS 4389]

9 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

@Alex i thought you were one of the people i clashed with on here about whether the labour antisemitism story was overblown - a media storm etc. forgive me if i got that wrong. even if i am mistaken i still highly recommend the book. 

apologies NJS also if i'm mixing you up with someone else. 

i suppose at times it felt like i was a lone voice, often failing to make some of the points that baddiel nails in this book. other than ewerk, he was in my corner, so i at least i get to shame him for that 

 

Don't get me wrong I think it was strongly weaponised by Corbyn's enemies including some in the party and by a lot of people who don't give a fuck about jews but I do think he had  a blind spot which was a lot to do with the argument that he saw racism as punching down and saw anything about Jews as punching up which is obviously wrong. 

 

Unlinking Jewish identity from the religion as Baddiel does is a little troublesome for me however - I think people can overthink ethnicity instead of just accepting what we have in common - obviously he has grandparents who were holocaust victims which is understandably personal. 

[Dr Gloom 21954]

9 minutes ago, NJS said:

Don't get me wrong I think it was strongly weaponised by Corbyn's enemies including some in the party and by a lot of people who don't give a fuck about jews but I do think he had  a blind spot which was a lot to do with the argument that he saw racism as punching down and saw anything about Jews as punching up which is obviously wrong. 

 

Unlinking Jewish identity from the religion as Baddiel does is a little troublesome for me however - I think people can overthink ethnicity instead of just accepting what we have in common - obviously he has grandparents who were holocaust victims which is understandably personal. 

why is it troublesome? i'm an atheist jew

[Rayvin 5223]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

there's no question that corbyn's political and media opponents weaponised the issue, but it also became an issue under his watch, partially because of this blind spot that exists in his wing of the labour party. 

i do implore you to read the book. he absolutely nails it

 

The book appears to argue that the progressive left has a tendency to ignore or overlook the identity of Jewish people and that as a consequence they are not afforded the same 'protections' of the left wing hierarchy of privilege/oppression. I suspect it says more than that but this was as much of the foreword as I was able to read from the preview. I think this point is fair enough and I have no issue with it - the examples cited are strong and I think I've seen enough to suggest that this is the case anyway. I'm not a progressive left winger though, I don't tend to put a lot of stock in intersectionality which is really the dynamic that he's taking issue with. I would also go so far as to say that the progressive left is more concerned with virtue signalling to specific demographics than it is with actually creating meaningful change.

 

My concern is that you think I am a progressive left winger, and you think my thinking maps to theirs. It doesn't - I am left wing but that doesn't mean I've wholesale embraced progressivism, and I've spoken out frequently against identity politics in principle anyway. If however we're saying that this book will reveal to me some of the underlying facts or details of what was going on that I may not have previously been aware of, then that's another story - but I suppose we might be able to clear up a lot of this by you simply outlining to me what it is you think I need to see that is in this book, based on what you think my views are, if that makes sense.

[PaddockLad 17285]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

why is it troublesome? i'm an atheist jew

 

So your folks are Jewish? Didn't quite grasp that...

[Dr Gloom 21954]

i'll post some excerpts later. 

did we not clash over the mural? 

[Dr Gloom 21954]

Just now, PaddockLad said:

 

So your folks are Jewish? Didn't quite grasp that...

sure. my mother is jewish, my dad is catholic - i'm a secular jew. being jewish is an important part of my identity. i'm as jewish as i am white. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

i'll post some excerpts later. 

did we not clash over the mural? 

 

Yes but again, not for the reasons you might be thinking. The issue I had with the mural was that I didn't recognise the people depicted in it as Jewish. I will concede to ignorance of some of the stereotypes there, as I think I did at the time - but I genuinely looked at it and saw 'the rich' and them alone.

 

I can see how this was also a dog whistle, and on reflection I think Corbyn had probably been around the block enough to be wary of that point too (at least more than I was). But yeah, for me that mural was just about the rich divvying up the world and crushing the rest of us, which I recognised as something I fundamentally believe - so that was all I saw when I viewed it.

 

I also recall, with respect of Corbyn, that he had made his comments on this mural a year or two beforehand, and that smaller press outlets had picked up on it then. It was 'interesting' that it was only an issue for the bigger ones now that they needed something to throw at him.

 

Have to ask mind, do you think we clashed because I was sitting there saying Jewish people were actually running the world and this was some kind of accurate depiction of the state of play??

[Dr Gloom 21954]

15 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Yes but again, not for the reasons you might be thinking. The issue I had with the mural was that I didn't recognise the people depicted in it as Jewish. I will concede to ignorance of some of the stereotypes there, as I think I did at the time - but I genuinely looked at it and saw 'the rich' and them alone.

 

I can see how this was also a dog whistle, and on reflection I think Corbyn had probably been around the block enough to be wary of that point too (at least more than I was). But yeah, for me that mural was just about the rich divvying up the world and crushing the rest of us, which I recognised as something I fundamentally believe - so that was all I saw when I viewed it.

 

I also recall, with respect of Corbyn, that he had made his comments on this mural a year or two beforehand, and that smaller press outlets had picked up on it then. It was 'interesting' that it was only an issue for the bigger ones now that they needed something to throw at him.

 

Have to ask mind, do you think we clashed because I was sitting there saying Jewish people were actually running the world and this was some kind of accurate depiction of the state of play??

no i never thought that, but i did wonder it failing to spot a pretty obvious antisemitic trope pointed to the same blind spot on the left that baddiel highlights so well in his book

[PaddockLad 17285]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

sure. my mother is jewish, my dad is catholic - i'm a secular jew. being jewish is an important part of my identity. i'm as jewish as i am white. 

 

My dad was a jock mum was a manc... I've been confused for 52 years

 

 

[Renton 21638]

Going by what Gloom says, I'm a Catholic atheist. Increasingly neither of those aspects of my identity have been important to me. I'm not saying it's wrong, but the importance people attach to heritage puzzles me a bit. 

[Dr Gloom 21954]

 

Just now, Renton said:

Going by what Gloom says, I'm a Catholic atheist. Increasingly neither of those aspects of my identity have been important to me. I'm not saying it's wrong, but the importance people attach to heritage puzzles me a bit. 

jewishness is not simply a religion, that's the point

[Rayvin 5223]

12 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

no i never thought that, but i did wonder it failing to spot a pretty obvious antisemitic trope pointed to the same blind spot on the left that baddiel highlights so well in his book

 

So I can see that, but then it's not a left wing thing there, it's a 'me' thing. That mural conformed to a view of the world that I hold and cognitive bias did the rest. I would argue that what I was particularly ignorant to, was that people with left wing views could be antisemitic - not that Jewish people are an identity that needed protecting.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Rayvin

[Renton 21638]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

jewishness is not simply a religion, that's the point

 

Is irish Catholicism simply a religion? 

[Dr Gloom 21954]

 

 

[Dr Gloom 21954]

[NJS 4389]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

jewishness is not simply a religion, that's the point

And thats my point - why does the ethnicity of your ancestors matter so much? 

 

I know my ancestors are English and Irish as far as I know but I don't feel it means that much in the scheme of things. Maybe it should but I just don't get it. 

 

Your kids are 1/4 Jewish (making an assumption about your lass, apologies if wrong) so it's likely within 3 or 4 generations that fraction will be very small -  why hold one identity above the rest?

 

It always amuses me when Americans describe themselves as one eighth Irish or whatever describing someone they never knew - I know being an immigrant nation explains that to some degree but I honestly don't get the obsession with ancestry. 

 

Of course I'm not dismissing an identity but I think that comes from more immediate relatives and other influences on your life.

[Dr Gloom 21954]

Just now, NJS said:

And thats my point - why does the ethnicity of your ancestors matter so much? 

 

I know my ancestors are English and Irish as far as I know but I don't feel it means that much in the scheme of things. Maybe it should but I just don't get it. 

 

Your kids are 1/4 Jewish (making an assumption about your lass, apologies if wrong) so it's likely within 3 or 4 generations that fraction will be very small -  why hold one identity above the rest?

 

It always amuses me when Americans describe themselves as one eighth Irish or whatever describing someone they never knew - I know being an immigrant nation explains that to some degree but I honestly don't get the obsession with ancestry. 

 

Of course I'm not dismissing an identity but I think that comes from more immediate relatives and other influences on your life.

i suppose it matters when you'e being persecuted or discriminated against because of something you have no control over, just like other forms of racism. 

[NJS 4389]

4 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i suppose it matters when you'e being persecuted or discriminated against because of something you have no control over, just like other forms of racism. 

Fair point. 

 

I have to say the use of race in this context is something I'm also unsure about - race is mainly a social construct and I'm not sure European Jews who've been here for hundreds of years could still be defined as Middle Eastern which points to the religion being the common factor. That hasn't stopped the persecution of course which again I accept. 

[Renton 21638]

35 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i suppose it matters when you'e being persecuted or discriminated against because of something you have no control over, just like other forms of racism. 

 

Like Irish catholics? 

[Dr Gloom 21954]

10 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Like Irish catholics? 

You’d have to take it up with the Irish Catholics. 

[ewerk 30642]

Anti-Irish discrimination was obviously a big problem in days gone by and was clearly recognised as discrimination. The point I think Gloom is trying to make is that Jewish discrimination isn’t seen as valid as other forms of discrimination. The main reason being IMO is that Jews are viewed as generally rich and successful therefore it can’t be racism/discrimination because it isn’t ‘punching down’.