Rayvin 5223 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 The far right have have been rattling on about how Labour needs to demonstrate patriotic values to become relevant again. In fact there's been a general movement from these sorts of people to congregate around the notion of patriotism in a stronger sense now that they're becoming disillusioned with the rich themselves. It's definitely pandering IMO. The red wall voters may not realise they're parroting far right talking points and chasing that rhetoric, but they often are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4389 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 42 minutes ago, ewerk said: How the hell is sitting beside the country's flag pandering to far right nationalism? It's an interesting question - Billy Bragg has written a lot of stuff (and some songs) regarding this topic and about how the left can talk about patriotism. I think I've said before there are broadly two kinds of patriotism - a shared sense of identity and values and common ground which I'm happy to be a part of and the Queen/establishment/empire/exceptionalist version which seems more prevalent. Its the latter that gets associated with the flag thanks to its vocal proponents which unfortunately stifles debate as you're either seen as for them or against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30642 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Then they need to redefine patriotism. There's nothing wrong with patriotism, it's nationalism that's the problem but they're both on the same spectrum. Your mention of the Queen is a good point, unfortunately bending the knee is a prerequisite to taking power in this country and I don't think that's going to change any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30642 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Quote The research also concludes that voters believe Labour is the party of “spend, spend, spend”, blamed on the leadership of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. The result, according to the heading on one slide, is: “No part of the brand is insulated from lack of economic credibility.” Whereas the public is said to care most about the economy, healthcare and Britain leaving the EU, in that order, it sees Labour politicians as sharing only one of those priorities – health – while the Tories are seen as caring most about Brexit and the economy. Some images are tough to shift. The Tories being concerned about Brexit and the economy are mutually exclusive. We have a PM who literally said 'fuck business' and knowingly created huge barriers to trade and yet they're still seen and the party of business? I really hope the public cop on over the next five years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21954 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 hour ago, ewerk said: How the hell is sitting beside the country's flag pandering to far right nationalism? it is kind of sad the way the left feel shame when the labour leader gives an address in front of a union jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 We probably had a good opportunity to take forward a very positive vision of patriotism after 2012 and the olympics. I actually did feel proud of my country at that point, and the values associated with it (so, totally agree with NJS there). The problem is that we didn't really take that anywhere and I guess that was actually the peak moment for 'our ideals'. What we've missed from that point is that the Tories and the relentlessness of austerity have forced us into a murkier form of patriotism. And in part that's because no one is offering any believable hope for any great improvements to life. Everything is just shit, there's no way out of it, so people have chosen to be angry rather than constructive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: it is kind of sad the way the left feel shame when the labour leader gives an address in front of a union jack I don't feel shame about it, I just think it's disingenuous and transparent. Along with, I would add, most of the people it's supposed to appeal to. Edited February 3, 2021 by Rayvin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4389 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 28 minutes ago, ewerk said: Then they need to redefine patriotism. There's nothing wrong with patriotism, it's nationalism that's the problem but they're both on the same spectrum. Your mention of the Queen is a good point, unfortunately bending the knee is a prerequisite to taking power in this country and I don't think that's going to change any time soon. I think the Queen is a very simplistic symbol of an identity which could work if it was framed in a better way but it has too much baggage for me and again is hard to talk about reasonably due to polarisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30642 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 16 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: it is kind of sad the way the left feel shame when the labour leader gives an address in front of a union jack We're describing Renton as the left now?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30642 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Rayvin said: I don't feel shame about it, I just think it's disingenuous and transparent. Along with, I would add, most of the people it's supposed to appeal to. Yes but if it works then good. You described it as pandering earlier which is exactly what it is but it certainly isn't aimed at the nationalist right, it's aimed squarely in the centre. Edited February 3, 2021 by ewerk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21954 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 14 minutes ago, Rayvin said: I don't feel shame about it, I just think it's disingenuous and transparent. Along with, I would add, most of the people it's supposed to appeal to. as distasteful or as superficial as it might feel, we have to win back this type of voter https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-nuclear-weapons-heckled-bbc-question-time-leaders-special-video-a7770446.html?jwsource=cl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30642 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 18 minutes ago, Rayvin said: We probably had a good opportunity to take forward a very positive vision of patriotism after 2012 and the olympics. I actually did feel proud of my country at that point, and the values associated with it (so, totally agree with NJS there). The problem is that we didn't really take that anywhere and I guess that was actually the peak moment for 'our ideals'. What we've missed from that point is that the Tories and the relentlessness of austerity have forced us into a murkier form of patriotism. And in part that's because no one is offering any believable hope for any great improvements to life. Everything is just shit, there's no way out of it, so people have chosen to be angry rather than constructive. The very same austerity that fuelled Scottish nationalism. The SNP went from 6 MPs in 2010 to 56 in 2015. Largely because of austerity and the Lib Dems complicity in it. That genie is out of the bottle now and won't go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21954 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, ewerk said: We're describing Renton as the left now?! i was thinking more of rayvin tbh. i'm surprised a blairite such as renton is so appalled tbh. blair got it just as starmer does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21638 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 minute ago, ewerk said: Yes but if it works then good. You described it as pandering early which is exactly what it is but it certainly isn't aimed at the nationalist right, it's aimed squarely in the centre. Its not aimed at the centre. Its not aimed at the middle class professionals, which is most people on here. Its aimed at former Labour supporters who are in fact right wing in the sense they are socially Conservative, nationalistic, and in actual fact love a bit of authoritarianism. Anyway, I agree with the article, and as I've said I sensed the change before it was written. I want no part of the labour party heading in this direction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30642 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Renton said: Its not aimed at the centre. Its not aimed at the middle class professionals, which is most people on here. Its aimed at former Labour supporters who are in fact right wing in the sense they are socially Conservative, nationalistic, and in actual fact love a bit of authoritarianism. Anyway, I agree with the article, and as I've said I sensed the change before it was written. I want no part of the labour party heading in this direction. The thick northerners then? If a bit of flag fucking is what it take then I’m all for that. You have to bring these people with you, not completely ignore them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21638 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said: i was thinking more of rayvin tbh. i'm surprised a blairite such as renton is so appalled tbh. blair got it just as starmer does No, they are miles apart. Blair had vision, instinct, and was brave. Starmer is a wannabe popularist. The proof will be in the pudding, electoral results. I'm in favour of high taxes.and Scandinavian type welfare btw. Economically in definitely left of centre and culturally I'm fairly libiterian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4389 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, Renton said: Its not aimed at the centre. Its not aimed at the middle class professionals, which is most people on here. Its aimed at former Labour supporters who are in fact right wing in the sense they are socially Conservative, nationalistic, and in actual fact love a bit of authoritarianism. Anyway, I agree with the article, and as I've said I sensed the change before it was written. I want no part of the labour party heading in this direction. I can grit my teeth if it's a part of a whole and does mean places like Blyth can be won back. There may be other arguments which can do it but they'd be fighting 40 years of propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4389 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Just now, Renton said: No, they are miles apart. Blair had vision, instinct, and was brave. Starmer is a wannabe popularist. The proof will be in the pudding, electoral results. I'm in favour of high taxes.and Scandinavian type welfare btw. Economically in definitely left of centre and culturally I'm fairly libiterian. Blair was more than happy to wear a union jack - I don't see any difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21954 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 32 minutes ago, Rayvin said: We probably had a good opportunity to take forward a very positive vision of patriotism after 2012 and the olympics. I actually did feel proud of my country at that point, and the values associated with it (so, totally agree with NJS there). The problem is that we didn't really take that anywhere and I guess that was actually the peak moment for 'our ideals'. What we've missed from that point is that the Tories and the relentlessness of austerity have forced us into a murkier form of patriotism. And in part that's because no one is offering any believable hope for any great improvements to life. Everything is just shit, there's no way out of it, so people have chosen to be angry rather than constructive. you're right. 2012 was the last time i felt proud to be british. seems like a lifetime ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21954 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, Renton said: No, they are miles apart. Blair had vision, instinct, and was brave. Starmer is a wannabe popularist. The proof will be in the pudding, electoral results. I'm in favour of high taxes.and Scandinavian type welfare btw. Economically in definitely left of centre and culturally I'm fairly libiterian. starmer and blair are cut from the same cloth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21638 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said: starmer and blair are cut from the same cloth We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21954 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Just now, Renton said: We'll see. why do you say starmer is a wannabe populist? because he gives an address in front of a union jack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21638 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: why do you say starmer is a wannabe populist? because he gives an address in front of a union jack? I don't mean an authoritarian populist. I mean someone who engages in PR campaigns against his personal beliefs. A man without conviction. Did anyone actually see the party political broadcast on Tuesday? If you had replaced Starmer with a more charismatic bombastic "Boris" it would have been fine as a tory broadcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30642 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 11 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: why do you say starmer is a wannabe populist? because he gives an address in front of a union jack? He's just one step away from populists like Hitler, Mussolini and er... Bernie Sanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 I don't think anyone is saying he's a wannabe populist, he doesn't have the fire in him for that - the problem is that he's falling over himself to win back socially conservative voters (Renton spot on with that characterisation) who were only allied with us as far as I can tell because of economics. But the divide between these social conservatives and the middle class liberals is wider than ever. It's not clear to me at all that Labour can carry both forward, some aspects of what they're trying to do are outright contradictory. Is there any evidence that this messaging is getting through to and persuading the voters he's targeting? If there is then he's right to do it, but he's risking losses on the other side of his now too big to function party. As I've said before, and as ewerk also said the other day, he needs to build alliances around getting us to a PR system. This would mean the pressure comes flying off Labour and it can disband. Farage would be a decent vehicle to ally with as he's far more likely to win over these red wall voters than Starmer is. And yeah I hate the thought of that too, but that's effectively who Starmer is trying to compete with here. There is no broad church anymore, it's a party that is trying to unite the most fervent remainers with the most fervent leavers. It's fucking doomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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