Politics

[ewerk 30642]

There’s no point in fighting a battle that’s already been lost.

[PaddockLad 17285]

Just now, ewerk said:

There’s no point in fighting a battle that’s already been lost.

 

Might depend whos next leader of the tory party... I think Gove is a far more plausible bullshitter than Johnson. Could be mitigated  by him being half man/ half oil slick.

[Dr Gloom 21954]

Pains me to say it but Starmer is right - rejoining the EU has to be the long game. We’re going to have to give the country a decade or more of Brexit shit before people realise it wasn’t that great an idea after all 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5223]

It's no skin off my nose particularly given where I am at the moment, but I think don't think this strategy is going to work. To win back those Brexit voters he'd have to get into bed with someone like Farage. Which I still think would be a fairly viable way forward (other than it would never happen), rallying everyone around a PR movement. Pragmatic if deeply unpleasant, but that appears to be the order of the day anyway.

 

I think he's going to lose a significant number of young remain voters with this when push comes to shove, combined with making very little ground in the red wall areas. He's alienating the Corbynite left who hate him anyway, unfairly, and the also risking the centrist sub-40s who don't want to pander to the people who have fucked us in the first place.

 

Not sure the culture war is going to let him have his compromise.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Rayvin

[Dr Gloom 21954]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

It's no skin off my nose particularly given where I am at the moment, but I think don't think this strategy is going to work. To win back those Brexit voters he'd have to get into bed with someone like Farage. Which I still think would be a fairly viable way forward (other than it would never happen), rallying everyone around a PR movement. Pragmatic if deeply unpleasant, but that appears to be the order of the day anyway.

 

I think he's going to lose a significant number of young remain voters with this when push comes to shove, combined with making very little ground in the red wall areas. He's alienating the Corbynite left who hate him anyway, unfairly, and the also risking the centrist sub-40s who don't want to pander to the people who have fucked us in the first place.

 

Not sure the culture war is going to let him have his compromise.

 

 

Where will the remainers go though? I think most people are resigned now to the fact that we’ve left and we won’t rejoin any time soon. Politicians have to acknowledge that Johnson secured a mandate for his shitty hard Brexit at the last election. All that is left is to just take some pleasure in pointing out to leavers that they got what they voted for when things go tits up. 

[Rayvin 5223]

53 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Where will the remainers go though? I think most people are resigned now to the fact that we’ve left and we won’t rejoin any time soon. Politicians have to acknowledge that Johnson secured a mandate for his shitty hard Brexit at the last election. All that is left is to just take some pleasure in pointing out to leavers that they got what they voted for when things go tits up. 

 

Combination of not bothering to vote and going for the Greens? Who are now apparently ahead of the LDs.

 

There'll be an option.

[Renton 21638]

Starmer was fucking pathetic on Marr this morning. Running scared of the so called red wall. Arsehole. He doesn't need to pander to these people now, he doesn't need to do a 180 turn and rule out FoM forever. He just needs ro let the disaster that is the UK unfurl and pick up the baton in 3 years, after assessing the landscape.

 

This country is fucked. I am seriously thinking of moving just North of the border and commuting in after Scotland gets independence, aided and abetted by Starmer. With distance working in the offing, its pretty feasible. 

[Rayvin 5223]

8 minutes ago, Renton said:

Starmer was fucking pathetic on Marr this morning. Running scared of the so called red wall. Arsehole. He doesn't need to pander to these people now, he doesn't need to do a 180 turn and rule out FoM forever. He just needs ro let the disaster that is the UK unfurl and pick up the baton in 3 years, after assessing the landscape.

 

This country is fucked. I am seriously thinking of moving just North of the border and commuting in after Scotland gets independence, aided and abetted by Starmer. With distance working in the offing, its pretty feasible. 

 

Renton gets it

 

Not that I don't understand the desire for compromise from everyone else, but yeah.

[PaddockLad 17285]

19 minutes ago, Renton said:

Starmer was fucking pathetic on Marr this morning. Running scared of the so called red wall. Arsehole. He doesn't need to pander to these people now, he doesn't need to do a 180 turn and rule out FoM forever. He just needs ro let the disaster that is the UK unfurl and pick up the baton in 3 years, after assessing the landscape.

 

This country is fucked. I am seriously thinking of moving just North of the border and commuting in after Scotland gets independence, aided and abetted by Starmer. With distance working in the offing, its pretty feasible. 

 

My mate commutes Corbridge to SBC HQ at Newtown St Boswells 

 

I think there won't be a Labour government till the 2030s...its not like Major fucking it up after Thatcher and letting fresh faced neo Tory Tony in...the country has been radicalised...no point being harsh on Starmer, he's probably thinking he's made a massive mistake just taking the job..

[ewerk 30642]

Right, once again for the slow of learning: Brexit is TOXIC for Labour. If there was one thing to take away from the last election it was that. Starmer doesn’t want it to be an issue next time out. If he pledges now to introduce FoM as PM then the next Tory leader will use it as a stick to beat him with repeatedly. You don’t win elections by walking into the opponent’s trap.

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, ewerk said:

Right, once again for the slow of learning: Brexit is TOXIC for Labour. If there was one thing to take away from the last election it was that. Starmer doesn’t want it to be an issue next time out. If he pledges now to introduce FoM as PM then the next Tory leader will use it as a stick to beat him with repeatedly. You don’t win elections by walking into the opponent’s trap.

 

If Brexit is TOXIC for labour, why is he taking a position on it? What's the plan for keeping the remainers onboard? Hope they're pragmatic enough to just ignore the very strong feelings many of them have about both the issue and how we got here?

 

I think he's fucked either way, which is why he may as well stick with what he believes in and attempt to be convincing with it.

 

This is just pandering and he's free to do it, but the cost of that pandering is my vote at the very least, and from the conversations I've been having, I'm not alone. You might be right about this of course but you're incredibly unlikely to be right to the extent that he actually wins the next GE - so again, why do it?

[Andrew 4771]

Because he won't win it doing what you're saying either. So he might as well have a go.

 

 

[ewerk 30642]

Exactly. Adopting a ‘pro remain’ position at the last election didn’t do them any favours. Why do the same again when it’s much less of an issue? See how things play out over the next four years. Committing to something like FoM at this point would be madness.

[Howmanheyman 33267]

I find it a bit depressing when good people on here say they won't vote. Not everyone is doing ok or can just fuck off. I know it'll be said in frustration in the main but we've just got to get these cunts out. Anything else can just wait. 

[Renton 21638]

24 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Exactly. Adopting a ‘pro remain’ position at the last election didn’t do them any favours. Why do the same again when it’s much less of an issue? See how things play out over the next four years. Committing to something like FoM at this point would be madness.

 

It not about commiting to FoM. Starmer this morning specifically committed to NO FoM. He didn't need to do that, it smacks of pandering to the right wing cunts that got us in this mess. Neither is it pragmatic, because I was right behind him and now am not. Rayvin too, doubtless millions of others. His stance on Scotland was equally pathetic. Just reinforces the view that he has no backbone at all. 

 

Blair was a pragmatist, but he had a moral compass he believed in which you either could get on board with or not. What does Starmer represent? Nothing, nothing at all.  Greyer than the grey man. 

[Tom 14011]

Whatever happened to Mancmag? 

[Rayvin 5223]

13 minutes ago, Howmanheyman said:

I find it a bit depressing when good people on here say they won't vote. Not everyone is doing ok or can just fuck off. I know it'll be said in frustration in the main but we've just got to get these cunts out. Anything else can just wait. 

 

I'm not particularly doing ok myself if that's any mitigation, and I will vote - I'll be going SNP (which is as good a non-Tory vote as you can get in Scotland).

 

Brexit has had a fantastically damaging impact on both my personal and professional life - the industry I predominantly work within has been slammed with cuts, job losses and redundancies, so much so that I've not been able to find permanent employment now for two years - as a consequence I've been working freelance in consulting which has just about managed to keep my head above water but prevents me from building towards any kind of stability or getting a foothold at all - I'm also relying on generosity to some extent here and there so all in all, it's been professionally (and psychologically) devastating. I'm also in a relationship with someone who is an EU citizen who doesn't qualify for permanent settled status (although thank Christ we got pre-settled status, but she has some particular health considerations that I'm not entirely sure she's entitled to be able to handle over here anymore and trying to figure the whole bastard thing out is driving me up the wall). So please don't think I'm just sitting in my ivory tower being uncompromising for the sake of the argument, I'm not.

 

Starmer is the one abandoning me, not the other way around. And I get his reasons, but my situation and the situation of a number of people I care about isn't improved remotely by a pro-Brexit Labour party and I don't see why my voice in all this shouldn't matter.

 

40 minutes ago, Andrew said:

Because he won't win it doing what you're saying either. So he might as well have a go.

 

 

 

This argument is just my argument backwards, which is fair enough but there's not much further we can go with this. In my view, he's not going to win over a significant number of red wall voters and he's potentially going to cost himself a significant number of urban remain voters. I am certain that the calculation is based on the fact that Labour smashed those seats so hard he can afford to lose them, but I reckon total votes is going to drop for Labour next time out. Not entirely sure this is a positive sign for the party. Trying to talk to two sides that, ideologically, are fucking miles apart. It's not just Brexit either. It's "patriotism", it's values, climate change, lockdowns, the future of the economy, Britain's place in the world, all of it. It is an irreconcilable divide IMO. Even if the Tories literally sink the country, I don't think it'll matter. 

[Renton 21638]

I hope things improve for you soon Rayvin. I've been relatively cushioned from the shitshow, but really I think nearly all working age people have been negatively affected to some extent.

 

I do try to remember that most people are relatively left leaning and that increases the younger you get. Imo FPTP has utterly ruined this country in a similar way it has in the States. And now as a result we are now witnessing what a devastating effect poor leadership can have on a nation. Like an alcoholic, maybe we need to hit rock bottom before we can totally rebuild. Question is, how far are we from that? 

[ewerk 30642]

2 hours ago, Renton said:

 

It not about commiting to FoM. Starmer this morning specifically committed to NO FoM.

Have you got quotes? In my brief google search I can’t see anything that suggests that.

[Renton 21638]

17 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Have you got quotes? In my brief google search I can’t see anything that suggests that.

 

I'm paraphrasing but imo it was the clear message he was giving under the softest of prodding by Marr. It'll be on iPlayer, not that I recommend it. It really struck me for the first time today how useless he is. He has zero conviction or courage. 

 

Also, have you noticed every time he does a party political broadcast or media event he has to have a scabby union jack draped next to him? Thus type of shite used to be the preserve of the BNP.  Welcome to Britain 2020. 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Renton

[Dr Gloom 21954]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'm not particularly doing ok myself if that's any mitigation, and I will vote - I'll be going SNP (which is as good a non-Tory vote as you can get in Scotland).

 

Brexit has had a fantastically damaging impact on both my personal and professional life - the industry I predominantly work within has been slammed with cuts, job losses and redundancies, so much so that I've not been able to find permanent employment now for two years - as a consequence I've been working freelance in consulting which has just about managed to keep my head above water but prevents me from building towards any kind of stability or getting a foothold at all - I'm also relying on generosity to some extent here and there so all in all, it's been professionally (and psychologically) devastating. I'm also in a relationship with someone who is an EU citizen who doesn't qualify for permanent settled status (although thank Christ we got pre-settled status, but she has some particular health considerations that I'm not entirely sure she's entitled to be able to handle over here anymore and trying to figure the whole bastard thing out is driving me up the wall). So please don't think I'm just sitting in my ivory tower being uncompromising for the sake of the argument, I'm not.

 

Starmer is the one abandoning me, not the other way around. And I get his reasons, but my situation and the situation of a number of people I care about isn't improved remotely by a pro-Brexit Labour party and I don't see why my voice in all this shouldn't matter.

 

 

This argument is just my argument backwards, which is fair enough but there's not much further we can go with this. In my view, he's not going to win over a significant number of red wall voters and he's potentially going to cost himself a significant number of urban remain voters. I am certain that the calculation is based on the fact that Labour smashed those seats so hard he can afford to lose them, but I reckon total votes is going to drop for Labour next time out. Not entirely sure this is a positive sign for the party. Trying to talk to two sides that, ideologically, are fucking miles apart. It's not just Brexit either. It's "patriotism", it's values, climate change, lockdowns, the future of the economy, Britain's place in the world, all of it. It is an irreconcilable divide IMO. Even if the Tories literally sink the country, I don't think it'll matter. 

I’m really sorry to hear about your personal situation, Rayvin. The whole situation fucking stinks. I wish we could reverse it but we can’t. There isn’t a party that could win an election on a rejoin ticket. We have to draw a line under Brexit for now. All those people who voted to get it done and to hell with the consequences will now have to live with the consequences so let’s just wait and see what happens further down the the line. It would be political suicide to make it an issue again at this moment though.  
 

I think HMHM is spot on though. I have protest voted in the past but I wouldn’t if I lived in a marginal seat. 
 

Brexit has divided Labour and the Tories. Starmer is caught between a rock and a hard place. We have to give him a chance, see what his domestic agenda looks like post-covid. A Starmer government would surely be better than the alternative. 

[ewerk 30642]

14 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I'm paraphrasing but imo it was the clear message he was giving under the softest of prodding by Marr. It'll be on iPlayer, not that I recommend it. It really struck me for the first time today how useless he is. He has zero conviction or courage. 

 

Also, have you noticed every time he does a party political broadcast or media event he has to have a scabby union jack draped next to him? Thus type of shite used to be the preserve of the BNP.  Welcome to Britain 2020. 

 

 

So that’s a no then?

[Dr Gloom 21954]

14 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I'm paraphrasing but imo it was the clear message he was giving under the softest of prodding by Marr. It'll be on iPlayer, not that I recommend it. It really struck me for the first time today how useless he is. He has zero conviction or courage. 

 

Also, have you noticed every time he does a party political broadcast or media event he has to have a scabby union jack draped next to him? Thus type of shite used to be the preserve of the BNP.  Welcome to Britain 2020. 

 

 

This is nothing new. It wins elections. Blair knew it 

 

 

[Renton 21638]

I don't recall Blair doing it at all, despite those photos (which don't depict a huge union flag behind his desk).  I find it quite jarring with Starmer. Maybe that's just unconscious bias on my behalf. Anyway, can't see it winning any elections after Scotland breaks the union. No doubt he will switch to a flag of St George. 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Renton

[Monkeys Fist 42460]

I’ll be honest here, if a bloke has aspirations to eventually become PM, it’s a bit nit-picky to criticise him for having the flag of his country in his office. 
He’s barely been in position long enough to draw breath, and now he’s the Devil Incarnate. 
 

This is why Labour allowed the Cunts back in to power- we’re so busy tearing our own to shreds, we take our eye off the real enemy.