Politics

[Alex 35095]

2 hours ago, ewerk said:

So it turns out that Starmer gave Corbyn advance notice of his speech that he wouldn't tolerate anyone who minimised anti-semitism within the party and Corbyn knowingly released a statement doing just that. Len McCluskey can talk about a divided party but it's Corbyn doing the dividing.

Him and McCluskey. 

[ewerk 30641]

15 hours ago, ewerk said:

The worry is that Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al fuck off and start their own party and McCluskey bankrolls them. That sort of thing would guarantee another two decades of Tory rule.

And just one hour later:

 

[ewerk 30641]

Not to worry, Len McCluskey has calmed the situation by telling Jewish Labour party member Peter Mandelson to 'go and count his gold'.

[Dr Gloom 21951]

fucking hell 

[Dr Gloom 21951]

get big len in front of the cameras - if that doesn't diffuse things, i don't know what will

[Toonpack 9447]

2 hours ago, ewerk said:

Not to worry, Len McCluskey has calmed the situation by telling Jewish Labour party member Peter Mandelson to 'go and count his gold'.

Seriously 🤣Fucking hell

Edited October 30, 2020 by Toonpack

[Dr Gloom 21951]

5 hours ago, ewerk said:

And just one hour later:

 

i've been thinking about your point. isn't history just repeating itself? in the 80s militant were kicked out and then labour became electable. 

[PaddockLad 17284]

 

[Monkeys Fist 42460]

43 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

Looks cosy in Greece this time of year. 

[PaddockLad 17284]

25 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Looks cosy in Greece this time of year. 

 

"charity is a coat you wear, twice a year"

 

the fuckin cynical cunts...

[ewerk 30641]

MBEs for everyone on the audience!

 

Payrises? Fuck off, you plebs.

[ewerk 30641]

So while rumours of a second lockdown whirl around the DUP don’t let that distract them from the big political story of the day.

 

[Dr Gloom 21951]

Searing piece by Rawnsley here on Jezza 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/01/mr-corbyns-self-pity-betrays-the-victims-of-antisemitism-scandal

[PaddockLad 17284]

Seems to me that the result of the Labour AS affair will be the closing down of any mainstream criticism of Israel re the Palestinian situation in the media. Very liberal Jewish folk like David Baddiel (who I like and respect) always say that they object & criticise but you rarely see it . As for the rest of us, who’s going to stick their head above the parapet now?  That was always one of Corbyn’s main problems, you go into pro Palestine groups and I’ve no doubt you will find a bunch of foaming mouthed anti semites. The Israeli policy towards Palestine has been a murderous abomination for 70 years. Does that go to the heart of the Israeli state or does it dwell within the hearts of the population who elect those who carry out the policy? It’s almost certainly both, but is it anti Semitic to suggest that? 

Edited November 2, 2020 by PaddockLad

[Rayvin 5223]

10 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

Seems to me that the result of the Labour AS affair will be the closing down of any mainstream criticism of Israel re the Palestinian situation in the media. Very liberal Jewish folk like David Baddiel (who I like and respect) always say that they object & criticise but you rarely see it . As for the rest of us, who’s going to stick their head above the parapet now?  That was always one of Corbyn’s main problems, you go into pro Palestine groups and I’ve no doubt you will find a bunch of foaming mouthed anti semites. The Israeli policy towards Palestine has been a murderous abomination for 70 years. Does that go to the heart of the Israeli state or does it dwell within the hearts of the population who elect those who carry out the policy? It’s almost certainly both, but is it anti Semitic to suggest that? 

 

Probably all true - but in the end it isn't our problem. It should be, and under a proper democracy it would be possible to explore and criticise where appropriate - but the UK isn't a proper democracy. It's a series of narratives that you have to avoid being on the wrong end of if you ever want to get into power. It is what it is, and I've learned in the past few months that having any view which isn't hard boiled in a pragmatic 'power at all costs' approach is simply 'sixth form debating club' politics.

[Dr Gloom 21951]

do i detect a whiff of english irony i need to learn about?

there is plenty of room in our democracy - and the labour party - to support the palestinian people and criticise the state of israel.

just don't leet you party be over run by unelectable trot antisemites if you want to win an election and improve the lives of ordinary people. 

[Rayvin 5223]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

do i detect a whiff of english irony i need to learn about?

there is plenty of room in our democracy - and the labour party - to support the palestinian people and criticise the state of israel.

just don't leet you party be over run by unelectable trot antisemites if you want to win an election and improve the lives of ordinary people. 

 

You think Starmer could come out and criticise Israel for anything? Or anyone from Labour in fact? I doubt it, they'll now have to shut the fuck up for their own good, or a media evisceration will await.

 

In the end, I actually agree with you on this anyway - principles are dead, pragmatism has to reign. In general, that's how I think Labour need to operate if they want to win power. I won't be joining them though (albeit this isn't the issue that represented the final straw for me) - back to the sixth form debating club for me

[Dr Gloom 21951]

34 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You think Starmer could come out and criticise Israel for anything? Or anyone from Labour in fact? I doubt it, they'll now have to shut the fuck up for their own good, or a media evisceration will await.

 

In the end, I actually agree with you on this anyway - principles are dead, pragmatism has to reign. In general, that's how I think Labour need to operate if they want to win power. I won't be joining them though (albeit this isn't the issue that represented the final straw for me) - back to the sixth form debating club for me

 

criticising the israeli government is absolutely fair game as far as i'm concerned. just don't choose to die on a hill with the antisemites.

principles aren't dead. but the EHRC report is damning. don't pretend it's overblown when an independent body has found otherwise. accept it for what it is, try and draw a line in the sand and move on. that is the pragmatic thing to do. and yes, learn to be pragmatic. this unwillingness to bend on any issue isn't principled opposition. it is sixth form politics.   

 

[ewerk 30641]

46 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

all i wanted to do was talk about abusing jews . mean thats what liberal western democracies are for. Because i  said i thought that hitler had the right idea i get verbally abused i get called a cunt. and everything. i dont need this. i dont deserve it. So thanks for having me. enjoyed my time here. See yer all around

 

[Rayvin 5223]

4 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

criticising the israeli government is absolutely fair game as far as i'm concerned. just don't choose to die on a hill with the antisemites.

principles aren't dead. but the EHRC report is damning. don't pretend it's overblown when an independent body has found otherwise. accept it for what it is, try and draw a line in the sand and move on. that is the pragmatic thing to do. and yes, learn to be pragmatic. this unwillingness to bend on any issue isn't principled opposition. it is sixth form politics.   

 

 

Yeah I thought I'd characterised your position pretty fairly  

[Dr Gloom 21951]

12 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Yeah I thought I'd characterised your position pretty fairly  

you can be principled and pragmatic. 

the dogma that corbyn, and his followers, preach is self-defeating, pig-headed and ultimately enables more tory rule. in fact, for that reason, i'd say corbyn has been just as bad for the country as cameron, osborne and johnson/cummings.

we have never needed competent opposition more. it looks like we finally have it in starmer

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 21951]

10 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

parky?

[Rayvin 5223]

40 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

you can be principled and pragmatic. 

the dogma that corbyn, and his followers, preach is self-defeating, pig-headed and ultimately enables more tory rule. in fact, i'd say corbyn has been just as bad for the country as cameron, osborne and johnson/cummings.

we have never needed competent opposition more. it looks like we finally have it in starmer

 

 

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Milliband also managed to enable more Tory rule. Let's not pretend that everything was going swimmingly for Labour only for Corbyn to show up and wreck everything - he only got in at all because the centre left in the party was completely bereft of ideas and direction. Milliband's loss was what delivered the mandate for the referendum in the first place.

 

On the rest of it, I hope you're right. Starmer is indeed competent. He won't win of course, but he's competent. It's a shame about his u-turn on the EU but pragmatism is all, I suppose.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Rayvin

[Rayvin 5223]

47 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

 

In fairness, this isn't even the hill I chose to die on  I've read the EHRC exec summary, looks fair and measured to me. The most significantly damning aspect was the fact that Labour's sexual harassment policy/procedures were far more rigorous than it's antisemitism ones. That's clearly not acceptable.

[Tom 14011]

Did you read the bit where every time a certain Lord approached Corbyn he’d start making a beeping noise. 

And would say “sorry I forgot to turn off my nonce radar” 

Not very priministerial