Politics

[Gemmill 44931]

Can one of the mods change Alex's name to New Low Alex please? 

[Monkeys Fist 42459]

37 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Israel have a ruthless and no nonsense approach to most things, along with quite a lot of perpetual experience …

 

I once tried to sign up to Israeltastic message board, but they were a bit too perpetual. 

[Meenzer 15550]

Just now, Monkeys Fist said:

I once tried to sign up to Israeltastic message board, but they were a bit too perpetual. 

 

Too nebbish?

[Rayvin 5223]

29 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said:

No. But my response quoted your post that appeared to be linking the death of George Floyd to training from Israel. Which, as I’ve explained above, is a stretch and a half. 

To clarify, what did you mean by that post?

 

 

There were people earlier in this thread discussion who were effectively claiming that Israel had been pulled in out of nowhere for absolutely no reason. The training programs demonstrate quite clearly in my view that this isn't the case. Israel has not necessarily been thrown into this from the position of innocent bystander who was blamed solely because they are Jewish.

 

In effect there are two considerations here:

 

1 - RLB believes that Israel was involved in this because Jews are behind all the world's evils.

 

2 - RLB missed an uncited section about Israel training US police because, due to the brutality the state of Israel uses day to day in controlling their land, and the fact that they actually do carry out training programs, this was a believable statement that didn't warrant challenge.

 

In my view, it is far, far more likely to be the second one. Which would of course, not be antisemitic. As I have said earlier, yes, as she isn't a layman but a front bench member of a Labour party mired in antisemitism scandals, she should have known better. She should have been sacked. It was an excellent political move on a number of fronts to sack her. I approve of all of that.

 

But to believe she was being antisemitic you have to believe point 1 above, and with the awareness that Israeli training programs for police in the US do exist, it's not possible to be 100% confident in the statement, and in my view it tends much more probably over to point 2.

 

EDIT - just to head it off before it happens, I'll return to my bold and underlined caveat from earlier posts: I do not believe that Israel taught that training technique in question here, and even if they did it still wouldn't be their fault that the US used it.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Rayvin

[Monkeys Fist 42459]

6 minutes ago, Meenzer said:

 

Too nebbish?

Oy vay! 

[Meenzer 15550]

5 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Oy vay! 

 

 

[Phil 6]

25 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Finding myself able to believe something is not equivalent to suggesting it happened.

 

Basic comprehension ffs.

 

I will concede to have used Israeli police and special forces interchangeably in this but i hardly see that it's relevant.

You've seen something bad and linking it to Israel.  Subconscious or not, xenophobia is not ok.

 

It mental to suggest they use it.  And it highlights your prejudice.

 

 

[Monkeys Fist 42459]

Just now, Meenzer said:

 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Phil said:

You've seen something bad and linking it to Israel.  Subconscious or not, xenophobia is not ok.

 

It mental to suggest they use it.  And it highlights your prejudice.

 

 

 

And my prejudice is what, exactly? I believe Jews should have a homeland and that Palestine has partial responsibility for the neverending nightmare that the whole situation over there has become. Firing rockets does warrant a response to protect your citizens. I do not believe they "run the world", I do not believe they are "responsible for all the world's problems". I believe America is the answer to both of those, broadly speaking.

 

I would also argue that the Israel/Palestine issue is really Britain's fault anyway.

 

Now that we've established I'm not the cardboard cutout of a radical left winger you so dearly wish I was, can you please fuck off with your strawman arguments?

[Meenzer 15550]

4 minutes ago, Phil said:

It mental to suggest they use it. 

 

Mind your stigmatising language there, Phil.

[Tom 14011]

A new low.

[Phil 6]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

And my prejudice is what, exactly? I believe Jews should have a homeland and that Palestine has partial responsibility for the neverending nightmare that the whole situation over there has become. Firing rockets does warrant a response to protect your citizens. I do not believe they "run the world", I do not believe they are "responsible for all the world's problems". I believe America is the answer to both of those, broadly speaking.

 

I would also argue that the Israel/Palestine issue is really Britain's fault anyway.

 

Now that we've established I'm not the cardboard cutout of a radical left winger you so dearly wish I was, can you please fuck off with your strawman arguments?

 

Prejudice definition:  preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

 

Do I have to paint you a picture.  You linked the kneeling restraint to Israel based on nothing but your own xenophobic prejudice.

 

 

How on Earth we are at fault. That is some bat shit crazy statement. 

 

Please read up on the two-state solution before you pretend to know a single iota about the conflict and who is trying to resolve it peacefully.

[Rayvin 5223]

3 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Prejudice definition:  preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

 

Do I have to paint you a picture.  You linked the kneeling restraint to Israel based on nothing but your own xenophobic prejudice.

 

 

How on Earth we are at fault. That is some bat shit crazy statement. 

 

Please read up on the two-state solution before you pretend to know a single iota about the conflict and who is trying to resolve it peacefully.

 

19 hours ago, Rayvin said:

It does also appear that the US police work very closely in training with the Israeli military, so while this technique is presumably not part of the training (and therefore flagging it as such is ignorant and sowing misinformation), it is also not as if Israel has been plucked out of nowhere as such. "Police all over the world" might use this technique, but how many of them are training the US police force?

 

I'm going to outline again that I support this decision even if it turns out that the Israeli police did train the US police to do this (not that I believe at present that they did) - mostly because it's good politics, makes it clear which side Starmer is on, and has the benefit of forcing the issue away from the leadership.

 

19 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

What isn't? The technique? I mean I don't think that matters, if special forces from any country are training US police, then why would we look at who invented it? It has no relevance when talking about where the US learned it from.

 

Also, another key fucking point here - even if Israel did teach them this (and again, as I have said, I don't believe that), that doesn't mean the US just has to accept everything they're told by foreign actors. The US bears total responsibility for the actions of their forces.

 

Fuck off.

[Kid Dynamite 7033]

41 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

There were people earlier in this thread discussion who were effectively claiming that Israel had been pulled in out of nowhere for absolutely no reason. The training programs demonstrate quite clearly in my view that this isn't the case. Israel has not necessarily been thrown into this from the position of innocent bystander who was blamed solely because they are Jewish.

 

In effect there are two considerations here:

 

1 - RLB believes that Israel was involved in this because Jews are behind all the world's evils.

 

2 - RLB missed an uncited section about Israel training US police because, due to the brutality the state of Israel uses day to day in controlling their land, and the fact that they actually do carry out training programs, this was a believable statement that didn't warrant challenge.

 

Or alternatively 

 

1 - She missed it completely. In which case it’s a harsh lesson about being careful what you share publicly when in a position of power 
 

2 - She didn’t miss it, but, stupidly/naively, didn’t think it was an issue so shared it anyway.

 

Either way, RLB is at fault. 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Kid Dynamite

[Phil 6]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

 

 

Fuck off.

 

So your not a xenophobe if you say something xenophobic, but stick an * at the end.

 

Got it.

 

 

Meanwhile....

 

39 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

due to the brutality the state of Israel uses day to day in controlling their land *

 

* I'm not a xenophobe.

 

[Alex 35095]

12 minutes ago, Phil said:

 

Prejudice definition:  preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

 

Do I have to paint you a picture.  You linked the kneeling restraint to Israel based on nothing but your own xenophobic prejudice.

 

 

How on Earth we are at fault. That is some bat shit crazy statement. 

 

Please read up on the two-state solution before you pretend to know a single iota about the conflict and who is trying to resolve it peacefully.

I’ll tell you what like, there’s absolutely no need for me to try and make you look stupid here. I could never do as a good a job as you 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Alex

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

 

So your not a xenophobe if you say something xenophobic, but stick an * at the end.

 

Got it.

 

 

Meanwhile....

 

 

 

FFS.

 

Ok Phil, I'm a xenophobe. You got me.

 

Which way is the queue for supporting Brexit and voting Tory?

[Alex 35095]

56 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Can one of the mods change Alex's name to New Low Alex please? 

Fuck off, Diet Gemmill 

[Rayvin 5223]

4 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said:

Or alternatively 

 

1 - She missed it completely. In which case it’s a harsh lesson about being careful what you share publicly when in a position of power 
 

2 - She didn’t miss it, but, stupidly/naively, didn’t think it was an issue so shared it anyway.

 

Either way, RLB is at fault. 

 

I mean yes, it's her fault indeed - no arguments there. And as I said, I think Starmer has handled it superbly.

 

Ultimately I've just got pulled into another argument about technicalities of facts on offer here - I guess because I'm a xenophobe.

[Gemmill 44931]

5 minutes ago, Alex said:

Fuck off, Diet Gemmill 

 

You'll be getting the New New Bengal treatment if these lows continue. 

[Alex 35095]

10 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

You'll be getting the New New Bengal treatment if these lows continue. 

Best name ever for a restaurant / takeaway that btw  

[Monkeys Fist 42459]

34 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I mean yes, it's her fault indeed - no arguments there. And as I said, I think Starmer has handled it superbly.

 

Ultimately I've just got pulled into another argument about technicalities of facts on offer here - I guess because I'm a xenophobe.

Say sorry. 
 

 

[PaddockLad 17283]

5 hours ago, Phil said:

 

Because they are the best in the world.  Lookup krav maga.

 

Fyi, Krav maga get a bad reputation because of its no nonsense approach.  But, it categorically does not advocate kneeling on a neck as a restraining technique.  Krav maga would mandate you restrain (handcuff) and remove the threat (put in back of the van).   Most special forces are taught it as it highlights things like when you are fighting 4 vs 1, step a foot behind a doorway to reduce the threat vector.  Simple but effective.

 

 

 

The US second amendment was ratified in 1791 Ken. Law enforcers have been dealing with potentially armed offenders in the US for 229 years. I'm at a loss aa to what is new for them to learn in that gig tbh

 

 

[Gemmill 44931]

I just noticed "threat vector".

[Gemmill 44931]

Sounds like Starmer got a lecture from Burgon and Corbyn this afternoon. Bet he came off that call feeling thicker than when he went on it.