Politics

[ewerk 30266]

That's why changing the leader is only the beginning of the needed reforms. The hard left and associated paranoia have taken hold of many parts of the Labour machine and there needs to be an overhaul of the entire organisation if they're to deal with this problem.

[Gemmill 44399]

2 hours ago, ewerk said:

If you were wondering why Gemmill has been quiet on here of late it's because he's busy running his new Twitter account.

 

 

 

She's gonna win. 

[Dr Gloom 21813]

 

[Gemmill 44399]

What does a Deputy of British Jews do?It's mind blowing to me how many different Jewish groups there are. 

[Dr Gloom 21813]

The funniest bit in the list of demands isn't the usual antisemitic shite, but the insistence that the JBD applaud corbyn's achievements, which have been "internationally recognised"

who says it isn't a cult? 

[Alex 34847]

7 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

The funniest bit in the list of demands isn't the usual antisemitic shite, but the insistence that the JBD applaud corbyn's achievements, which have been "internationally recognised"

who says it isn't a cult? 

To be fair it’s probably true if they mean Putin and Trump

[Rayvin 5185]

2 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

Labour has a serious problem. 

 

Have posted it before, but this is why that happens:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/08/israeli-diplomat-shai-masot-plotted-against-mps-set-up-political-groups-labour

 

So it's not like these views and fears are coming from nothing. The problem is, they need to stand down or we'll never get anywhere. Israel just doesn't matter within British politics. It's not a battleground. A Labour victory at an election would be far more annoying to Israel than all this bitching and moaning.

[Dr Gloom 21813]

the motion against the JBD is full of antisemitic tropes, there is no excuse for it, or room for it, in the labour party. the new leader must put these hard left loonies back in their box 

[Rayvin 5185]

24 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

the motion against the JBD is full of antisemitic tropes, there is no excuse for it, or room for it, in the labour party. the new leader must put these hard left loonies back in their box 

 

Ok but, Israel has admitted to trying to influence Labour policy and indeed apparently has successfully achieved the ousting of MPs for anti-Israel views, according to they themselves:

 

Among the MPs that Masot and Strizzolo discussed “taking down” was Sir Alan Duncan, a foreign minister and a vocal supporter of a Palestinian state.

In the latest recordings, Masot boasts of establishing organisations “in Israel and here [in the UK]”. When asked what he means, the Israeli official replies: “Nothing I can share, but yeah,” adding: “Yeah, because there are things that, you know, happen, but it’s good to leave those organisations independent. But we help them, actually.”

 

It's not happened in a vacuum. We might actually need to acknowledge that to be able to restore this. Although maybe a purge simply is the quickest way through it now. I don't care, frankly, as long as this ceases to be an issue.

[Rayvin 5185]

If it's any consolation, there is some robust discussion going on in some of the Labour Party groups I'm part of on this point, with a number of posts now coming up saying that Israel and Palestine isn't a focal issue and should just be dropped. It may be too late for those who are passionate about it. Some of them talking about heading to the Greens.

 

I don't think they'll win this particular fight. One way or another, we need to get rid of this and get back to attacking the Tories and their media, and not each other.

[Dr Gloom 21813]

52 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Ok but, Israel has admitted to trying to influence Labour policy and indeed apparently has successfully achieved the ousting of MPs for anti-Israel views, according to they themselves:

 

Among the MPs that Masot and Strizzolo discussed “taking down” was Sir Alan Duncan, a foreign minister and a vocal supporter of a Palestinian state.

In the latest recordings, Masot boasts of establishing organisations “in Israel and here [in the UK]”. When asked what he means, the Israeli official replies: “Nothing I can share, but yeah,” adding: “Yeah, because there are things that, you know, happen, but it’s good to leave those organisations independent. But we help them, actually.”

 

It's not happened in a vacuum. We might actually need to acknowledge that to be able to restore this. Although maybe a purge simply is the quickest way through it now. I don't care, frankly, as long as this ceases to be an issue.

So fucking what? Yes, Israel is one of several powers which tries to interfere with foreign democracies. We know that. 

It doesn’t excuse this motion, which deems a British Jewish group an agent of Israel unless it condemns the actions of the Israeli government. 
 

It’s appalling. It’s exactly like those on the far right, who demand that British Muslims condemn the actions of foreign Muslim countries. It’s racism that I didn’t used to think existed in the Labour Party, 

[Dr Gloom 21813]

59 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

If it's any consolation, there is some robust discussion going on in some of the Labour Party groups I'm part of on this point, with a number of posts now coming up saying that Israel and Palestine isn't a focal issue and should just be dropped. It may be too late for those who are passionate about it. Some of them talking about heading to the Greens.

 

I don't think they'll win this particular fight. One way or another, we need to get rid of this and get back to attacking the Tories and their media, and not each other.

You’re absolutely right. I want justice for Palestinian people too but there important argument closer to home that we are losing that we need to concentrate on. 

The were Palestinian flags everywhere at this year’s labour conference by all accounts. Obsessed 

[Rayvin 5185]

25 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

So fucking what? Yes, Israel is one of several powers which tries to interfere with foreign democracies. We know that. 

It doesn’t excuse this motion, which deems a British Jewish group an agent of Israel unless it condemns the actions of the Israeli government. 
 

It’s appalling. It’s exactly like those on the far right, who demand that British Muslims condemn the actions of foreign Muslim countries. It’s racism that I didn’t used to think existed in the Labour Party, 

 

Well, I see what you're saying on one side, but on the other, as you say, Israel is one of several powers which tries to interfere with foreign democracies. Specifically, within the Labour Party. And so what I'm saying is that given that we know Israel is interfering with shit in the Labour Party, it's not entirely surprising that people within the Labour party are jumping at shadows. Asking Jewish people to condemn Israel as some kind of proof I agree is ludicrous - but there are some stupid people on the left as well as on the right. And far too many purists.

 

18 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

You’re absolutely right. I want justice for Palestinian people too but there important argument closer to home that we are losing that we need to concentrate on. 

The were Palestinian flags everywhere at this year’s labour conference by all accounts. Obsessed 

 

Indeed. Without wishing any harm on them, we have enough hell going on in this country to be able to turn a blind eye to Palestine - at least as the Labour Party. We aren't in power, we can't do anything about it, let it fucking go. The Tories are the ones who should worry about that shit, not that they will.

[ewerk 30266]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

Ok but, Israel has admitted to trying to influence Labour policy and indeed apparently has successfully achieved the ousting of MPs for anti-Israel views, according to they themselves:

 

Among the MPs that Masot and Strizzolo discussed “taking down” was Sir Alan Duncan, a foreign minister and a vocal supporter of a Palestinian state.

In the latest recordings, Masot boasts of establishing organisations “in Israel and here [in the UK]”. When asked what he means, the Israeli official replies: “Nothing I can share, but yeah,” adding: “Yeah, because there are things that, you know, happen, but it’s good to leave those organisations independent. But we help them, actually.”

 

It's not happened in a vacuum. We might actually need to acknowledge that to be able to restore this. Although maybe a purge simply is the quickest way through it now. I don't care, frankly, as long as this ceases to be an issue.

 

Alan Duncan is a Tory. Yet we haven't heard the same sort of thing from them?

[Dr Gloom 21813]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Well, I see what you're saying on one side, but on the other, as you say, Israel is one of several powers which tries to interfere with foreign democracies. Specifically, within the Labour Party. And so what I'm saying is that given that we know Israel is interfering with shit in the Labour Party, it's not entirely surprising that people within the Labour party are jumping at shadows. Asking Jewish people to condemn Israel as some kind of proof I agree is ludicrous - but there are some stupid people on the left as well as on the right. And far too many purists.

 

 

Indeed. Without wishing any harm on them, we have enough hell going on in this country to be able to turn a blind eye to Palestine - at least as the Labour Party. We aren't in power, we can't do anything about it, let it fucking go. The Tories are the ones who should worry about that shit, not that they will.

it isn't just ludicrous - it's antisemitic. it's exactly like when far right nutters blame british muslims for terrorist attacks in other countries. it has no place in the labour party and needs to be crushed, by whoever takes over as leader. this far left fringe that has infected the party is a boil that needs to be lanced. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5185]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

 

Alan Duncan is a Tory. Yet we haven't heard the same sort of thing from them?

 

Yeah but the Tories are an entirely different party in mindset. Their primary concern, come what may, is power - I suspect that goes right down to the membership. Labour's membership is more ideological. Just different people with different priorities.

[Rayvin 5185]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

it isn't just ludicrous - it's antisemitic. it's exactly like when far right nutters blame british muslims for terrorist attacks in other countries. it has no place in the labour party and needs to be crushed, by whoever takes over as leader. this far left fringe that has infected the party is a boil that needs to be lanced. 

 

Suppose so. But then what do we do about Israeli interference in our political structures? Actually nevermind, I know the answer to that already.

[ewerk 30266]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Yeah but the Tories are an entirely different party in mindset. Their primary concern, come what may, is power - I suspect that goes right down to the membership. Labour's membership is more ideological. Just different people with different priorities.

He also resigned of his own volition. Is there any evidence that Israel have actually been meddling in UK politics and that they've had any success?

[Rayvin 5185]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

He also resigned of his own volition. Is there any evidence that Israel have actually been meddling in UK politics and that they've had any success?

 

Only the Israeli agent in the article I linked to formally admitting it.

[Dr Gloom 21813]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Suppose so. But then what do we do about Israeli interference in our political structures? Actually nevermind, I know the answer to that already.

i don't know what you do about it.

i do know what you don't do: you don't insists jewish groups condemn israel before they are permitted to advise on anti-jewish racism - are other ethnic communities held to a similar standard by the labour party? and you don't hold jewish groups collectively responsible for the actions of israeli government. you can decline not to sign up to that without being labelled an agent of israel. 

[Rayvin 5185]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i don't know what you do about it.

i do know what you don't do: you don't insists jewish groups condemn israel before they are permitted to advise on anti-jewish racism - are other ethnic communities held to a similar standard by the labour party? and you don't hold jewish groups collectively responsible for the actions of israeli government. you can decline not to sign up to that without being labelled an agent of israel. 

 

You don't do anything about it. Same as pointing out US adventurism and imperialism. You don't do anything about that either. Corporate greed and climate change? Don't do shit on those. Even Russia now, interfering in almost every democratic exercise that plays out across our nation? Ignore it. Play it safe.

 

I'm more than happy to purge the antisemites out of the party, and for the exodus of the hard left, if it wins us power - and with the election of Starmer, we could achieve this. But I'm not going to pretend that I find this direction particularly inspiring, or that I'm going to be especially hopeful about the future. Let's see where we are after another 10-15 years of the Tories, I guess.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Rayvin

[RobinRobin 11138]

15 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

the new leader must put these hard left loonies back in their box 

But given that the hard left loonies, who voted for and continued to support Corbyn throughout, are probably still there, is it likely that a leader is elected who will actually be prepared, or even willing, to do that?  

Are we not living in times where getting elected is of secondary importance to rabid dogma?

[Dr Gloom 21813]

6 hours ago, RobinRobin said:

But given that the hard left loonies, who voted for and continued to support Corbyn throughout, are probably still there, is it likely that a leader is elected who will actually be prepared, or even willing, to do that?  

Are we not living in times where getting elected is of secondary importance to rabid dogma?

We have to hope it’s dawned on them that you can’t create a socialist utopia without first winning power. 

The ideological “purists” are killing the party 

[Dr Gloom 21813]

The membership will hopefully do the right thing and we can wrestle power back from the head bangers 

[NJS 4371]

Speaking of which I was reading the twitter thread where Long-Bailey announced her website and there were loads who weren't even going to vote for her as she accepted that BOD document - now that's a spectacular level of purity.