Rayvin 5223 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Alex said: I take your point about wanting someone who questions the hypocrisy of it all. It was more of a wider comment re: his lack of pragmatism though. He gets caught up in the minutiae of how important it is to be even handed with everyone. Even if it’s going to cost him lots of votes. It’s indicative of his failure to see the bigger picture imo. It all gets back to needing someone capable of winning before even being able to think about helping people and changing things. I’m pretty much in agreement with you about that being in large part because of the ridiculous way the electorate views issues like this.  Tbh I overreacted a bit to that comment as I knew what you were getting at. And you're right. Even Gloom and ewerk are basically right. It just pisses me off that the truth is seen as a problem instead of something to aspire to. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30620 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 You're definitely the Toby of the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Toby? Who the fuck is Toby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30620 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Ziegler. I maybe should have made that more clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 13 minutes ago, Rayvin said:  Fair enough it's what you're reading into it, but he didn't say it. His stock response in reality is always to call for restraint and to step back from violence. You can choose to interpret in the way you have, but it's not his stock response. It's your stock assumption. His stock response is to criticise the US and western allies and never to condemn terrorists on the receiving end. It doesn’t take a genius to work out why.  We are still arguing about Corbyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: His stock response is to criticise the US and western allies and never to condemn terrorists on the receiving end. It doesn’t take a genius to work out why.  We are still arguing about Corbyn  I sometimes wonder what we expect these "terrorists" to do when we invade and destabilise their regions with reckless abandon. Bend over and take it?  If they were attacking us without provocation I would agree with you. But they aren't. They're attacking us because we have forced them to, and because they can't fight back conventionally because we have overwhelming force.  I don't get why this isn't more obvious. What would you have these countries do? Nothing? Edited January 8, 2020 by Rayvin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, ewerk said: Ziegler. I maybe should have made that more clear.  I don't get the reference either way, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30620 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 You wouldn't. Jed Bartlett wasn't pure enough for you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 21 minutes ago, Rayvin said:  I sometimes wonder what we expect these "terrorists" to do when we invade and destabilise their regions with reckless abandon. Bend over and take it?  If they were attacking us without provocation I would agree with you. But they aren't. They're attacking us because we have forced them to, and because they can't fight back conventionally because we have overwhelming force.  I don't get why this isn't more obvious. What would you have these countries do? Nothing? i'm not saying i don't have sympathy for those on the receiving end. rayvin, walk with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 9 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: i'm not saying i don't have sympathy for those on the receiving end. rayvin, walk with me.  But what is it you think they should do? I mean you're basically saying we need to see both sides of this, which is fine, but I'm curious about how we can have sympathy for the US when it invades other countries and then is surprised when, rather than line up to get shot to pieces by high tech military hardware, the enemy forces instead hit them where it hurts - their civilians.  We would do exactly the same and would call it justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:  But what is it you think they should do? I mean you're basically saying we need to see both sides of this, which is fine, but I'm curious about how we can have sympathy for the US when it invades other countries and then is surprised when, rather than line up to get shot to pieces by high tech military hardware, the enemy forces instead hit them where it hurts - their civilians.  We would do exactly the same and would call it justified. i don't have an answer, sorry. i am not defending trump's strike here by the way - he's off his tits. all i'm saying is if a political leader wants to be taken seriously, they have to be able to answer that question. once again, corbyn couldn't bring himself to do so but, yet again, he didn't hesitate to attack those terrible US imperialists. it's interesting that he never attacks russian atrocities in the same way, isn't it - i wonder why that is? corbyn is an irrelevance now, increasingly so the longer he stays in office, so we really ought to knock this on the head. oh, and you're clearly not a west wing man Edited January 8, 2020 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Yeah I'm getting none of these references, sorry  On Russia, Corbyn condemned the Salisbury attacks and said the evidence pointed towards Russia but, once again, that the UK should abide by international law and follow due process. Because he isn't a chest thumping psychopath. So you can wonder all you like, but the answer is that he has been consistent.  I'm trying to angle this away from Corbyn tbf as he is indeed irrelevant now, which is why i dropped him from the previous post altogether - but ultimately you mention "terrible US imperialists" as if it's some kind of exaggeration. It isn't. They are terrible. They are imperialists. And whenever someone in the middle east commits "an act of terror" against them, it's because they've been committing acts of terror themselves to provoke it.  No one should have any sympathy for the US at the state level. This is the price they pay for their foreign policy. No sympathy at all. Reap what they sow, etc etc. If they would just fuck off out of the region, Islamic terror would be far easier to hate on - except that very probably it would cease altogether.  The US creates these problems and then bitches on when it gets hit. They know exactly what they're doing and in any objective sense are the real bad guys in that region. Unless they know something the rest of us don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 corbyn's response to sailsbury was pathetic and he was attacked by his own MPs for refusing to see what was blatant from the offset - that russia was behind it https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/14/jeremy-corbyn-under-fire-over-response-to-pms-russia-statement pretty sure we argued about it at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 On the subject of planes, the Americans shot down an Iranian civilian plane in 1988, killing 290 people, 66 children. Â How is that not an act of terror? They're utter bastards in foreign policy. Maybe it really is all necessary to keep us safe but i sincerely doubt it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Just now, Dr Gloom said: corbyn's response to sailsbury was pathetic and he was attacked by his own MPs for refusing to see what was blatant from the offset - that russia was behind it https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/14/jeremy-corbyn-under-fire-over-response-to-pms-russia-statement pretty sure we argued about it at the time  We did, and my view remains the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) but let's have that argument again because we clearly can't get enough of it. Edited January 8, 2020 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 No we're good, let's drop Corbyn. Nothing is gonna change on that front for either of us and I'm not minded to rehash Salisbury either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17281 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 13 minutes ago, Rayvin said: On the subject of planes, the Americans shot down an Iranian civilian plane in 1988, killing 290 people, 66 children.  How is that not an act of terror? They're utter bastards in foreign policy. Maybe it really is all necessary to keep us safe but i sincerely doubt it.  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7852265/BBC-World-Affairs-Editor-JOHN-SIMPSON-assassination-Qassem-Soleimani.html  1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 That's surprisingly insightful from the Mail. If Iran does have some history in orchestrating things like Lockerbie then I guess we should expect a US official to be disappeared at some point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44901 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Dianne Abbott backs RLB for leader and Richard Burgon for Deputy.  It's becoming increasingly difficult to defend this woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17281 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 It's easy to defend her. People just laugh at you though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17281 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Rayvin said: That's surprisingly insightful from the Mail. If Iran does have some history in orchestrating things like Lockerbie then I guess we should expect a US official to be disappeared at some point. Â I think we're looking at a wave of Iranian backed terrorism for the foreseeable future. Article is by John Simpson who knows his stuff but is also a self regarding ponce, perfect for the BBC..& the mail.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35095 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 14 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:  I think we're looking at a wave of Iranian backed terrorism for the foreseeable future. Article is by John Simpson who knows his stuff but is also a self regarding ponce, perfect for the BBC..& the mail.. How can you say that? He liberated Kabul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17281 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, Alex said: How can you say that? He liberated Kabul  precisely 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17281 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Â 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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