Gemmill 44900 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Nicky Morgan made a life peer and stays on as Culture Secretary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21627 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Meenzer said: I thought this thread was clearly articulated & worth a read It made little sense to me. Blaming New Labour for austerity, pointing out things like Surestart being scrapped as detrimental? This is literally all the tories fault, not Blair'sor Brown's. Not only that, but she's just as condescending as the media she criticises. Brexit is stupid and will fuck up people's lives, yes. People are stupid for believing in it, turkeys voting for Christmas. Thanks for pointing that out, but what has she said that we dont know already? A lot of people, me included, just thought the Corbyn manifesto was unrealistic and a more modest one would have been more believable. She hasn't disproven that thesis. Edited December 16, 2019 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4386 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Renton said: It made little sense to me. Blaming New Labour for austerity, pointing out things like Surestart being scrapped as detrimental? This is literally all the tories fault, not Blair'sor Brown's. Not only that, but she's just as condescending as the media she criticises. Brexit is stupid and will fuck up people's lives, yes. People are stupid for believing in it, turkeys voting for Christmas. Thanks for pointing that out, but what has she said that we dont know already? That NL did fuck all for those people either - at least as far as those people are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21627 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 13 minutes ago, NJS said: That NL did fuck all for those people either - at least as far as those people are concerned. We keep returning to this which seems to be a bone of contention. I simply disagree. You've been given lists which showed NL massively invested in healthcare, education, and welfare, but you keep on ignoring them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30620 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Ah Phil is back again, like a paedo on parole. [/Succession] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4386 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, Renton said: We keep returning to this which seems to be a bone of contention. I simply disagree. You've been given lists which showed NL massively invested in healthcare, education, and welfare, but you keep on ignoring them. I don't ignore them but if you were a retired miner who hadn't had a decent job since the pits closed, you may think all those things are minor in comparison to your own lot in life. Even if you'd seen your kids go to university you'd probably have then seen them leave their home towns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30620 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 29 minutes ago, Gemmill said: Nicky Morgan made a life peer and stays on as Culture Secretary. Who says that dropping every one of your morals and shilling for someone you completely abhor doesn't pay off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30620 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 minute ago, NJS said: I don't ignore them but if you were a retired miner who hadn't had a decent job since the pits closed, you may think all those things are minor in comparison to your own lot in life. Even if you'd seen your kids go to university you'd probably have then seen them leave their home towns. Corbyn's Labour seemed to push them away much more than New Labour. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21627 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, NJS said: I don't ignore them but if you were a retired miner who hadn't had a decent job since the pits closed, you may think all those things are minor in comparison to your own lot in life. Even if you'd seen your kids go to university you'd probably have then seen them leave their home towns. You'd probably appreciate a decent state pension and huge investment in the NHS though. What did you expect from them after Thatcher, reopening the pits? I also keep saying, you might want to live in a socialist country, but most people simply don't. They were given the option on Thursday and massively rejected it, preferring the most right wing Tory government in living memory instead. Yes, the media played a huge part, but they weren't the fundamental problem. It looks like Corbyn and Labour won't learn from their mistakes either. We'll be in the same position in 5 or 10 years. Actually no we will be in a much worse position. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 6 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Gemmill said: Stephen Kinnock. Phil, you might be more electable than that cunt. Well this is awkward. I thought he seemed alright... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30620 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 You would... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 17 minutes ago, Renton said: You'd probably appreciate a decent state pension and huge investment in the NHS though. What did you expect from them after Thatcher, reopening the pits? I also keep saying, you might want to live in a socialist country, but most people simply don't. They were given the option on Thursday and massively rejected it, preferring the most right wing Tory government in living memory instead. Yes, the media played a huge part, but they weren't the fundamental problem. It looks like Corbyn and Labour won't learn from their mistakes either. We'll be in the same position in 5 or 10 years. Actually no we will be in a much worse position. I don't think it's over yet - we'll have to see but the membership are the ones who decide. I won't vote RLB I don't think, and Rayner is falling in behind her. Not sure who I'll go for just yet but whatever Momentum and the party want isn't as important as the membership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 6 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 7 minutes ago, ewerk said: You would... My first choice would be Andy Burnham, but Corbynista ran him out of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30620 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 It’s a bit of a leap from Andy Burnham to Kinnock. Dare I ask what the thought process was there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4386 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 26 minutes ago, Renton said: You'd probably appreciate a decent state pension and huge investment in the NHS though. What did you expect from them after Thatcher, reopening the pits? I also keep saying, you might want to live in a socialist country, but most people simply don't. They were given the option on Thursday and massively rejected it, preferring the most right wing Tory government in living memory instead. Yes, the media played a huge part, but they weren't the fundamental problem. It looks like Corbyn and Labour won't learn from their mistakes either. We'll be in the same position in 5 or 10 years. Actually no we will be in a much worse position. Not reopening the pits but some investment would have been nice. Some social housing. Thing is people have been told for 40 years that we cant afford anything, things we did own have been sold to the rich and I think the generation im a part of and older just don't believe it's possible no matter how well it's costed or how desirable. They's rather believe in fucking Brexit. I don't even think the Labour manifesto was even that socialist - all it aimed to do was to restore a resemblance of balance. That may seem like going backwards but I'd say it was a reset to when the idea of a government working for everybody was abandoned. I'ts very simplistic to say that this defeat means the end of any notion of socialism - by that argument the defeats of 2015 and 2010 show that nobody wants a centrist agenda either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 7 hours ago, NJS said: I'm sure Edwards thinks that, but there's still no believable explanation of the cenotaph/laughter episodes in my view. That's before considering the punch thing - admittedly that wasn't BBC alone but it came from the same area - "correspondents" happily acting as conduits for Cummings' lies. The cenotaph thing is quite believable. I accept the re-edited package with Johnson without the laughter is more suspicious. the slip of the tongue from the reporter sounded awful bit could have easily just been an innocent slip of the tongue. the worst thing for me has been Laura K. Barely trying to disguise her blatant bias in the last week of the campaign and breaking basic editorial rules. I think she should be replaced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21627 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 55 minutes ago, NJS said: Not reopening the pits but some investment would have been nice. Some social housing. Thing is people have been told for 40 years that we cant afford anything, things we did own have been sold to the rich and I think the generation im a part of and older just don't believe it's possible no matter how well it's costed or how desirable. They's rather believe in fucking Brexit. I don't even think the Labour manifesto was even that socialist - all it aimed to do was to restore a resemblance of balance. That may seem like going backwards but I'd say it was a reset to when the idea of a government working for everybody was abandoned. I'ts very simplistic to say that this defeat means the end of any notion of socialism - by that argument the defeats of 2015 and 2010 show that nobody wants a centrist agenda either. Except we haven't had a truly socialist government in my life time but people were happy with 13 years of NL. I'm up for giving a more radical left wing government a go. Its not me you need to persuade though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 6 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 50 minutes ago, ewerk said: It’s a bit of a leap from Andy Burnham to Kinnock. Dare I ask what the thought process was there? There is no logic under that rock. Burham is the most electable MP Labour have had since David Milliband, but neither are MPs. Kinnock seems to understand why Labour lost ---> link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Phil said: There is no logic under that rock. Burham is the most electable MP Labour have had since David Milliband, but neither are MPs. Kinnock seems to understand why Labour lost ---> link If those are his views why didn't he stand as an independent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 FFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil 6 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 21 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said: If those are his views why didn't he stand as an independent? Fair point. I thought the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Radical but potentially lethal to the Tories: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/16/lib-dems-tories-split-vote-labour There'd be an almight power struggle though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Decent Article https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/49374/After+the+election%2C+keep+up+the+fight+against+Tory+rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30620 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Tom said: Decent Article https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/49374/After+the+election%2C+keep+up+the+fight+against+Tory+rule Things to blame for the election defeat: - Electoral system - The media including the BBC - Anyone in the Labour Party to the right of Corbyn - A lack of rallies - Brexit - Anyone bringing up the problem of antisemitism in the party - The unions for failing to push for strikes Things not to blame for Labour absolute catastrophe of a general election - Jeremy Corbyn Honestly Tom, if that’s how Labour are thinking then we’re in for at least ten years of Tory rule. It’s a complete refusal to face the truth and address the clear and obvious reason why the electorate didn’t vote Labour. Edited December 17, 2019 by ewerk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 We're in for at least 10 years of Tory rule if the people whose viewpoints Tom aligns with and the people whose viewpoints ewerk aligns with, can't meet in the middle. We need very similar policies next time out albeit more focused and less scattergun, and a flourish of patriotic zeal for the weak minded, along with media savvy. We need to be a moderate left wing party that is slick and ruthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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