ewerk 30385 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Rayvin said: So how are you proposing we get the left on board with austerity lite? Maybe we leave that particular policy on the bonfire. I wonder if all of this could have been avoided if Labour just opposed austerity properly... maybe Corbyn would never have been elected. As I've said before, I was going Cooper up until I read his manifesto and the party broadly voted to punish poor people in some timely vote on austerity around the same time. But anyway, if the centrists want to take the party back, it's gonna have to be seriously convincing stuff. Winning elections should be front and centre but it can't be everything. FFS. It isn’t a choice between austerity and communism. You can have a centre left party which opposes austerity, doesn’t want to nationalise your granny, implements a fair taxation system which growing the economy and doesn’t want to give away free broadband to your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5187 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, ewerk said: FFS. It isn’t a choice between austerity and communism. You can have a centre left party which opposes austerity, doesn’t want to nationalise your granny, implements a fair taxation system which growing the economy and doesn’t want to give away free broadband to your dog. I didn't say it was, hence suggesting we leave austerity out. All i meant to imply was that the offering needs to be strong. More left than centre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21404 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Winning elections should be front and centre but it can't be everything. I had a double take on this. Yes, it absolutely is everything. Being a principled opposition isn't helping anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5187 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Renton said: I had a double take on this. Yes, it absolutely is everything. Being a principled opposition isn't helping anyone. Johnson just won an election, that's not going to help us. Just winning isn't everything. Policies matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5187 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Also, again, I'm kind of trying to suggest how we get the broad church back. I'm now about 30 hours without sleep so maybe I'm totally incoherent at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonatine 11329 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21404 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Johnson just won an election, that's not going to help us. Just winning isn't everything. Policies matter. This is a circular argument. No point having policies you can't implement. Blair and co got this, I'm not sure you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34938 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Johnson just won an election, that's not going to help us. Just winning isn't everything. Policies matter. Johnson just won an election on sound bites and a paper thin manifesto. The gap in the polls was pretty much the same at the end as at the beginning. Policies matter to a relatively small number of the electorate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21861 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 i think what johnson has demonstrated is you win elections in 2019 by fighting dirty and making promises you can't keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Terrifying. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Monkeys Fist said: @Tom, hats off to you mate, you did everything in your power. Cheers for the kind words lads. It's a rough day today. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30385 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 15 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said: i think what johnson has demonstrated is you win elections in 2019 by fighting dirty and making promises you can't keep. Yup, it’s a worrying blueprint for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30385 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 31 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Also, again, I'm kind of trying to suggest how we get the broad church back. I'm now about 30 hours without sleep so maybe I'm totally incoherent at this point. Let’s be clear. This was a catastrophe for Labour. Putting lipstick on it isn’t going to change their fortunes. The party needs a complete reset. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayatollah Hermione 13840 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Someone that hasn’t had a picture with Gerry Adams would do. The amount of people that saw that and hit the roof was genuinely staggering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5187 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 14 minutes ago, ewerk said: Let’s be clear. This was a catastrophe for Labour. Putting lipstick on it isn’t going to change their fortunes. The party needs a complete reset. I'm not trying to put lipstick on anything, I think they're fucked. Permanently. I've said it repeatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5187 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 40 minutes ago, Alex said: Johnson just won an election on sound bites and a paper thin manifesto. The gap in the polls was pretty much the same at the end as at the beginning. Policies matter to a relatively small number of the electorate But they do matter to the left wing that any centrist taking over Labour needs to keep on side. This whole point came from an attempt to suggest that if the centrists do somehow manage to take control again, they need to keep the left on board. Somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34938 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rayvin said: But they do matter to the left wing that any centrist taking over Labour needs to keep on side. This whole point came from an attempt to suggest that if the centrists do somehow manage to take control again, they need to keep the left on board. Somehow. Fair enough. 👍🏻 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30385 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 26 minutes ago, Rayvin said: But they do matter to the left wing that any centrist taking over Labour needs to keep on side. This whole point came from an attempt to suggest that if the centrists do somehow manage to take control again, they need to keep the left on board. Somehow. Where are they going to go? They aren’t likely to vote for anyone else. What is important it to keep them motivated so they’re out knocking on doors like Tom. It’s much easier to get the lefties out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21404 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 47 minutes ago, ewerk said: Let’s be clear. This was a catastrophe for Labour. Putting lipstick on it isn’t going to change their fortunes. The party needs a complete reset. As it was this was the worst result in living memory wasn't it? Since 1935. Worse than 82 under Foot. I mean, that takes some doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5187 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Part of me hopes that several of the Labour voters who went for the Tories this time have a nagging sense of "what have we done". I doubt the intention was a victory this convincing. They'll know what Johnson is about, too. I still think that anyone objecting to Corbyn has no need to go Tory. So many of them went straight across the aisle here it's just bizarre if the issue was just him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21404 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Part of me hopes that several of the Labour voters who went for the Tories this time have a nagging sense of "what have we done". I doubt the intention was a victory this convincing. They'll know what Johnson is about, too. I still think that anyone objecting to Corbyn has no need to go Tory. So many of them went straight across the aisle here it's just bizarre if the issue was just him. I think you underestimate how much people hate him and what they would do to keep him amd his acolytes out of power. I must admit, I don't get the reason for the extent of the hatred either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42149 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Renton said: I think you underestimate how much people hate him and what they would do to keep him amd his acolytes out of power. I must admit, I don't get the reason for the extent of the hatred either. Especially when you consider the absolute fucking clownshoe they voted for instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21404 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Mind, to look at it another way, Labour "only" polled 11% less than the tories, 13.9 million vs. 10.3 million votes, difference 3.6 million. It's a lot, but out of a voting population of 46 million maybe less than you'd think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 32847 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 59 minutes ago, Ayatollah Hermione said: Someone that hasn’t had a picture with Gerry Adams would do. The amount of people that saw that and hit the roof was genuinely staggering. It was indeed staggering. Almost as staggering as shouting 'No surrender to IRA!' at Ingurland games and being so determined to not surrender to them that they inevitably said fuck Northern Ireland when the complexities of Brexit and the good Friday agreement came up. Almost as if they didn't have a clue/give a fuck about the IRA/keeping Ulster British after all? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5187 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Renton said: Mind, to look at it another way, Labour "only" polled 11% less than the tories, 13.9 million vs. 10.3 million votes, difference 3.6 million. It's a lot, but out of a voting population of 46 million maybe less than you'd think. Also many will have lent their votes to other parties. Just checked the Labour forum on Facebook and Starmer looks popular. Along with JLB though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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