Politics

[Alex 35095]

If it’s someone with less vision than Corbyn I’m hoping for Stevie Wonder 

[Renton 21627]

20 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

The 500k people who joined the party and the 40% of people who voted for him last time out.

 

Look, let's not do this again. Corbyn was ultimately a symptom of the same failure of the centre that Brexit is. If when Corbyn goes we return to "radical centrism" then I think we can consider the Tories in power for the rest of our lives.

 

What? I don't follow you. Johnson isn't delivering the Blair centralism of the 2000s, he's delivering something far, far worse for the huge majority of people. People want centralism, but it's not a choice being offered to them. 

[Rayvin 5223]

28 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

What vision? Who does he excite? He's as much vision as I had when I was in Tynemouth sixth form. The first rule of politics is to get elected you need broad appeal. Corbyn never had and will never have this. 

 

It's looking very much like no deal in 12 months time and Corbyn has a massive part in the blame for this. 

 

Actually, I do want to hear again how Corbyn could have won over a larger number of Leave voters - not sure that one ever got answered.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Rayvin

[Rayvin 5223]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

What? I don't follow you. Johnson isn't delivering the Blair centralism of the 2000s, he's delivering something far, far worse for the huge majority of people. People want centralism, but it's not a choice being offered to them. 

 

The centre moved during the austerity years. It's now where the right used to be.

 

EDIT - The Lib Dems are offering that choice, are they not?

Edited November 11, 2019 by Rayvin

[Renton 21627]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

The centre moved during the austerity years. It's now where the right used to be.

Its moved a fucknof a lot in the 3 months too. 

[Renton 21627]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

Actually, I do want to hear again how Corbyn could have won over a larger number of Leave voters - never sure that one ever got answered.

 

You don't get it. Its Corbyn himself, that's the problem. Remember, the guy who is a fucking leaver? Not to mention the horrible political baggage he has. He should have stood down for the good of the country. He didn't, and now were fucked. 

[Renton 21627]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

The centre moved during the austerity years. It's now where the right used to be.

 

EDIT - The Lib Dems are offering that choice, are they not?

 

With FPTP, what do you think?

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

With FPTP, what do you think?

 

Ah so there's not a desire for centrism widespread enough to actually achieve it, just that if the left wingers within Labour would just sit down and shut up and vote for the centrists, everything will be ok again.

 

I'm not voting for the centrists just to keep the Tories out. Not after austerity. It's not happening. I said right at the start of the Corbyn era that the left had to dig its fucking heels in and stay strong in the face of everything, come what may, if it wants to actually achieve anything. I sometimes think back on that comment and wonder about it, but if this is 'the end' for the left in this country - and I rather suspect it might be - then the centre cannot expect my vote in future. I don't believe they do anything apart from slow down the inevitable decline of the human experience and maybe it's better that we get the speedier version, frankly.

 

6 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

You don't get it. Its Corbyn himself, that's the problem. Remember, the guy who is a fucking leaver? Not to mention the horrible political baggage he has. He should have stood down for the good of the country. He didn't, and now were fucked. 

 

Ok I can see this point - Corbyn in and of himself does indeed have a number of attributes that I could see centrist voters struggling with. But let's be honest, anyone who thinks these issues are significant over and above those which are presented by Boris fucking Johnson is really just looking for any excuse not to vote Labour. "We could vote for all these policies if only Corbyn wasn't in charge" harp the Lib Dems, the same thing they've said about every Labour leader in every election in the past 30 years. Corbyn has been a total pain in the arse on the Remain front but he has done exactly what I wanted him to do with Labour in terms of policies. If that makes them unelectable, and tbh I still don't buy that at all - I mean it's clear as fucking day from the numbers that Brexit has fucked everything on that front, so it's beyond me how anyone can draw meaningful conclusions about his performance - then so be it. At least the party can move on from here looking like the actual fucking left. Well, assuming we don't see a return of the centrists.

[Renton 21627]

16 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I'm not voting for the centrists just to keep the Tories out. Not after austerity.

 

Ffs, it wasn't labour under Millibamd who delivered austerity, was it? Yes, I know their manifesto was austerity lite but I honestly think the reality would have been very different to the bucket of sick served up by Cameron and Clegg. THINGS WERE PRETTY GOOD UNDER NEW LABOUR. That's the beat this country has been in my lifetime

 

I'll be holding my nose and voting for Corbyn's labour, of course I will. His vision is much preferable to me than Johnsons. But I don't think his is ever a message, or he is a person, that is likely to get a majority in HoP. It's tragic Corbyn has maintained his position as leader of the opposition at this time in our history, because perversely it has moved us into a situation that is far to the right than would have happened with a normal leader, and it is literally splitting the nation apart. 

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

Ffs, it wasn't labour under Millibamd who delivered austerity, was it? Yes, I know their manifesto was austerity lite but I honestly think the reality would have been very different to the bucket of sick served up by Cameron and Clegg. THINGS WERE PRETTY GOOD UNDER NEW LABOUR. That's the beat this country has been in my lifetime

 

I'll be holding my nose and voting for Corbyn's labour, of course I will. His vision is much preferable to me than Johnsons. But I don't think his is ever a message, or he is a person, that is likely to get a majority in HoP. It's tragic Corbyn has maintained his position as leader of the opposition at this time in our history, because perversely it has moved us into a situation that is far to the right than would have happened with a normal leader, and it is literally splitting the nation apart. 

 

So back to that first point then. What would Blair, for the sake of argument, if he were in opposition right now - have done to avert this? So Brexit has happened, and Blair is a staunch remainer. How does that win over any Labour leavers? How does that bring the country back together?

[Dr Gloom 21924]

blair would have wiped the floor with johnson 

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

blair would have wiped the floor with johnson 

 

Go on.

 

How does Blair take a polarising issue like Brexit and win over the 46/47% of the electorate that is fervently leave, and which is propping up the Tories?

[Dr Gloom 21924]

take iraq out of the picture, a horrific foreign policy error, and the blair years were really rather good. 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

Go on.

 

How does Blair take a polarising issue like Brexit and win over the 46/47% of the electorate that is fervently leave, and which is propping up the Tories?

he mops up all the soft tory voters for starters - the sort who are moving to the lib dems because they can't stomach corbyn. he forms a remain alliance, because he's a smart politician. he wins votes, because that's what he was good at. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

he mops up all the soft tory voters for starters - the sort who are moving to the lib dems because they can't stomach corbyn. he forms a remain alliance, because he's a smart politician. he wins votes, because that's what he was good at. 

 

So he abandons the Labour leavers. I see.

 

And what is done about the Brexit Party under this grand strategy? I mean what you're proposing is simply cannibalizing voters from another Remain party.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

54 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

So he abandons the Labour leavers. I see.

 

And what is done about the Brexit Party under this grand strategy? I mean what you're proposing is simply cannibalizing voters from another Remain party.

that's exactly what he would have done, yes. he would have campaigned for what he believed in, unlike corbyn with this half-baked, half-arsed, wish-washy fence-sitting position that doesn't really appeal to either side. and he would have won, because winning elections was what he did. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5223]

5 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

that's exactly what he would have done, yes. he would have campaigned for what he believed in, unlike corbyn with this half-baked, half-arsed, wish-washy fence sitting position that doesn't really appeal to either side. and he would have won, because winning elections was what he did. 

 

Corbyn's position is by far and away the most logical one being put forward by any party. I defy anyone to explain to me that it isn't. Both from an electoral point of view in terms of maximising the pool of potential voters for Remain, and morally in terms of undoing the damage that this has caused in the fairest possible way.

 

And ok, so Johnson would have definitely been more or less where he is in the polls then under what you're proposing - full leave vote behind him, in the 40-45% range. And you think that Labour therefore is either ahead of that or at least matching it. Something that I'm not sure we've ever even seen as a country (45%+). The Lib Dems basically non-existent along with all other parties, including the SNP.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Rayvin

[Gemmill 44900]

The difference with Blair and Corbyn is that Blair could have brought some of the Leavers on the journey with him. Corbyn won't even say what he thinks. 

[Rayvin 5223]

5 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

The difference with Blair and Corbyn is that Blair could have brought some of the Leavers on the journey with him. Corbyn won't even say what he thinks. 

 

After 10 years of Tory austerity that Labour had effectively stood by and let go unchallenged, that would have been a big ask. But yes, that's the only possible way he could have made any difference. So then we're effectively comparing the net gains of Corbyn's position of having a re-run of the referendum which will appeal to a small but doubtless existent set of Labour friendly leavers, versus Blair just persuading them to vote the right way.

 

I would argue that the difference would be vanishingly small.

[Rayvin 5223]

Separate, left of field notion - if it came down to it, do you think a Tory/Liberal coalition could be achieved off the back of Johnson conceding a second referendum, and Swinson otherwise agreeing to prop him up? It would actually be a less stunning betrayal of the LD voters than it might first appear.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

johnson isn't going for a PV in a million years

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

johnson isn't going for a PV in a million years

 

I don't think he gives a shit as long as he's Prime Minister.

[ewerk 30620]

1 hour ago, Gemmill said:

Farage says he was offered a peerage on Friday night. U turn on following Monday but claims he'll reject the peerage. Let's see eh. 

All of which is entirely illegal.

[Rayvin 5223]

5 minutes ago, ewerk said:

All of which is entirely illegal.

 

Like that matters anymore  

[Renton 21627]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

Separate, left of field notion - if it came down to it, do you think a Tory/Liberal coalition could be achieved off the back of Johnson conceding a second referendum, and Swinson otherwise agreeing to prop him up? It would actually be a less stunning betrayal of the LD voters than it might first appear.

 

Yeah, I'm sure the ERG are going to be peachy with that idea. 

 

At the moment it doesn't look like Johnson needs anyone for a majority government. This may change though, I pray it does.