Politics

[Rayvin 5176]

Just now, Alex said:

Almost past caring if I'm honest

 

Well, indeed.

 

The country clearly isn't going to save itself.

[Renton 21287]

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

So you absolve the media and indeed the voters of this? In your view, the issue is Corbyn first, despite his positive platform ahead of the GE.

 

I can see the flaws in Corbyn, believe me. I've articulated them enough times now. I'm just not plagued with tunnel vision on the spinning of narratives.

I may be wrong, but am fairly sure you have downplayed the power and relevance of the MSM in the past. So which is it?

 

I'm not influenced by the MSM. I am dismayed at Corbyn's dismal display in opposition and his pro-Brexit beliefs. He's a hypocritical dinosaur. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Renton

[Rayvin 5176]

21 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

all corbyn has to do is offer a referendum on the terms of the final deal, instead of offering nothing that sets labour apart from the tories. 

all he has to do on antisemitism is say, i condemn antisemitism. instead of his usual cop out: i condemn antisemitism and all forms of racism. but he can't bring himself to do it, just like with the ira situation. 

sacking the leading antisemites in the party woudl go some way to making these headlines disappear too, but he's too stubborn to do it

 

 

 

Doesn't seem like the problem with Labour's anti semitism is more significant than the Tories though? Why do you think the media are obsessing about it when the evidence appears to show that Labour is on a better footing with this than the Conservatives? Also, what is wrong with the statement below:

 

"“We recognize that anti-Semitism has occurred in pockets within the Labour Party, causing pain and hurt to our Jewish community in the Labour Party and the rest of the country,”

[Renton 21287]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Indeed, the Tories are 4 points up I believe? Still though, we have the great Brexit calamity to unfold before the next election, and if it goes down the way Renton thinks it will, the government will collapse. And really, Corbyn should win at a canter from there.

 

Either way, what difference does it make now? He's not going anywhere and the Blairite wing of the party are bereft of ideas or vision.

 

Strong rumours of an autumn GE. Of course, this would require Labour to vote for it, which they will, despite it obviously being a trap. 

[ewerk 30257]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Indeed, the Tories are 4 points up I believe? Still though, we have the great Brexit calamity to unfold before the next election, and if it goes down the way Renton thinks it will, the government will collapse. And really, Corbyn should win at a canter from there.

That makes Corbyn as bad as May, allowing Brexit to fuck up the country in pursuit of power.

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

I may be wrong, but am fairly sure you have downplayed the power and relevance of the MSM in the past. So which is it?

 

I'm not influenced by the MSM. 8 am dismayed at Corbyn's dismal display in opposition and his pro-Brexit beliefs. He's a hypocritical dinosaur. 

 

I do think the media are diminished. And I think Corbyn's showing in the GE more or less underlined this point. But let's be honest, I never said that they were powerless or without the ability to influence anymore - and for the last GE, it wouldn't have taken much influencing at all, would it?

 

You are obsessed with Brexit. With good reason - but that's basically all you care about politically, at the moment. And sure, judged on Brexit alone, I can see why you'd want Corbyn gone. But the rest of the country does not appear to be as concerned with Brexit as you are.

[Rayvin 5176]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Strong rumours of an autumn GE. Of course, this would require Labour to vote for it, which they will, despite it obviously being a trap. 

 

Well they did that last time, I thought it was stupid, and yet brought us into a stronger position ahead of Brexit.

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

That makes Corbyn as bad as May, allowing Brexit to fuck up the country in pursuit of power.

 

What exactly is Corbyn supposed to do about Brexit? There is nothing he can do about it. He may as well wait for everything to fall apart because whether he protests vehemently, or bides his time, the outcome is the same.

[Alex 34834]

I sit somewhere in the middle with Corbyn and can sympathise with both views (I appreciate Rayvin isn't the 'Corbynista' he's sometimes portrayed as) but I think it's a shame about Corbyn's intransigence re: Brexit which is a real issue and a shame, i.e. with a few tweaks I'd be right behind him but in some ways he is almost as bad as May because of his stubbornness (whatever the actual motive behind that actually is - I'm really not sure).

[Christmas Tree 4685]

Venezuela

 

1 months wage = 3 bags of rice

 

 

[Alex 34834]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I do think the media are diminished. And I think Corbyn's showing in the GE more or less underlined this point. But let's be honest, I never said that they were powerless or without the ability to influence anymore - and for the last GE, it wouldn't have taken much influencing at all, would it?

 

You are obsessed with Brexit. With good reason - but that's basically all you care about politically, at the moment. And sure, judged on Brexit alone, I can see why you'd want Corbyn gone. But the rest of the country does not appear to be as concerned with Brexit as you are.

There was definitely a bit of the Trump effect whereby it got to the point where he was criticised so much, so one-sidedly and so unfairly that it had the opposite effect

[Dr Gloom 21812]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Doesn't seem like the problem with Labour's anti semitism is more significant than the Tories though? Why do you think the media are obsessing about it when the evidence appears to show that Labour is on a better footing with this than the Conservatives? Also, what is wrong with the statement below:

 

"“We recognize that anti-Semitism has occurred in pockets within the Labour Party, causing pain and hurt to our Jewish community in the Labour Party and the rest of the country,”

we're not talking about the tories, we're talking about corbyn's refusal to properly distance himself from the antisemitism controversy, or to sack anitsemits like naz shah and ken livingstone. if he did that the story would soon go away. 

"i condemn antisemitism - and all forms of racism"

"i condemn the ira - and all forms of terrorism"

just properly condemn the thing they're beating you with ffs. play the game. 

boyle, pascaoe and baddiel covered it well on the beeb the other day

 

 

[Alex 34834]

Just now, Christmas Tree said:

Venezuela

 

1 months wage = 3 bags of rice

 

 

Is anyone supposed to believe for one second that you give a fuck?

[Renton 21287]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I do think the media are diminished. And I think Corbyn's showing in the GE more or less underlined this point. But let's be honest, I never said that they were powerless or without the ability to influence anymore - and for the last GE, it wouldn't have taken much influencing at all, would it?

 

You are obsessed with Brexit. With good reason - but that's basically all you care about politically, at the moment. And sure, judged on Brexit alone, I can see why you'd want Corbyn gone. But the rest of the country does not appear to be as concerned with Brexit as you are.

 

I am obsessed with it, I admit. Canny important issue for me and my family I think. It barely registers on Corbyn's radar though it seems. Wonder why?

 

I understand people are bored shitless by it now. They'll be a lot less bored if we get a hard Brexit, I assure you. 

[Dr Gloom 21812]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

What exactly is Corbyn supposed to do about Brexit? There is nothing he can do about it. He may as well wait for everything to fall apart because whether he protests vehemently, or bides his time, the outcome is the same.

offer a referendum on the final deal? 

anything to differentiate labour from the tories

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, Alex said:

I sit somewhere in the middle with Corbyn and can sympathise with both views (I appreciate Rayvin isn't the 'Corbynista' he's sometimes portrayed as) but I think it's a shame about Corbyn's intransigence re: Brexit which is a real issue and a shame, i.e. with a few tweaks I'd be right behind him but in some ways he is almost as bad as May because of his stubbornness (whatever the actual motive behind that actually is - I'm really not sure).

 

Yeah honestly I think Corbyn is a halfwit, but I still admire his principles and agree with most of what he stands for. I generally just get annoyed at the media bullshit that I consistently have to take apart in order to get to a factual understanding of his position on anything.

 

So, as much as this has turned into another Corbyn debate, all I was really saying was "Look, the media were being dishonest fucks". That no one has challenged this suggests to me that I had the right of the anti-semitism 'scandal'.

[Renton 21287]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

offer a referendum on the final deal? 

anything to differentiate labour from the tories

 

I'd like him to endorse a Norway plus deal, and, you know, positively campaign for it. It's overwhelmingly the most popular option for most people. 

[Rayvin 5176]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

offer a referendum on the final deal? 

anything to differentiate labour from the tories

 

Are there votes in that, though?

 

What if he does that and loses the working class?

[Renton 21287]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Yeah honestly I think Corbyn is a halfwit, but I still admire his principles and agree with most of what he stands for. I generally just get annoyed at the media bullshit that I consistently have to take apart in order to get to a factual understanding of his position on anything.

 

So, as much as this has turned into another Corbyn debate, all I was really saying was "Look, the media were being dishonest fucks". That no one has challenged this suggests to me that I had the right of the anti-semitism 'scandal'.

 

I don't recall you being up in arms when Miliband was crucified for eating a bacon sandwich the wrong way. 

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

I'd like him to endorse a Norway plus deal, and, you know, positively campaign for it. It's overwhelmingly the most popular option for most people. 

 

He rejected this notion I believe. Said he couldn't sign us up to an agreement in which we were a rule taker and not a rule maker. I found this a frustrating position for him to take, but that's his view, and that's where we are.

[Dr Gloom 21812]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Are there votes in that, though?

 

What if he does that and loses the working class?

yes, the country is split down the middle on this issue, as are both political parties. some gammon faced brexiteers won't like it, but you have to offer something different to the tories. right now, there is literally nothing separating their brexit policies.

he'd be putting the final deal back to the people. it's way more sensible than calling the original referendum. 

[Rayvin 5176]

Just now, Renton said:

 

I don't recall you being up in arms when Miliband was crucified for eating a bacon sandwich the wrong way. 

 

I almost certainly would have been, because pre-Corbyn I was still backing Labour to the hilt. I was disillusioned with their support for austerity, but I was always strongly pro-Labour. I don't understand why you think I wouldn't have been.

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

yes, the country is split down the middle on this issue, as are both political parties. some gammon faced brexiteers won't like it, but you have to offer something different to the tories. right now, there is literally nothing separating their brexit policies.

he'd be putting the final deal back to the people. it's way more sensible than calling the original referendum. 

 

Not sure I agree tbh. I certainly want a second referendum personally, but I don't think there's any guarantee we would win it and it would be seen as an act to try and subvert the will of the people by everyone who voted for it in the first place. So that's 17 million voters he has alienated right off the bat.

[Renton 21287]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

He rejected this notion I believe. Said he couldn't sign us up to an agreement in which we were a rule taker and not a rule maker. I found this a frustrating position for him to take, but that's his view, and that's where we are.

Yeah, cos he's a hard brexiter.

 

Norway option takes us away from political union and, iirc, 75% of EU acquis. In EFTA we could act as a counterbalance to the EU, whilst not wrecking ourselves economically. FOM can be controlled with appropriate use of powers open to us. Ireland is solved. 

 

Because the referendum was so close, with Remain majorities in NI and Scotland, Norway is unarguably the most democratic outcome imo. Why can't the fuckwit Corbyn positively campaign for this? (hint, I've already answered this). 

[Rayvin 5176]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

Yeah, cos he's a hard brexiter.

 

Norway option takes us away from political union and, iirc, 75% of EU acquis. In EFTA we could act as a counterbalance to the EU, whilst not wrecking ourselves economically. FOM can be controlled with appropriate use of powers open to us. Ireland is solved. 

 

Because the referendum was so close, with Remain majorities in NI and Scotland, Norway is unarguably the most democratic outcome imo. Why can't the fuckwit Corbyn positively campaign for this? (hint, I've already answered this). 

 

The Norway option is Brexit in name only. It still has FOM, which IMO is the thing people will look to when judging whether or not we have actually left. Also, even Norway said the Norway option is a bad outcome - admittedly that was compared to staying in altogether, but still.

 

Could he win a GE on a Norway model footing? I doubt it. It's depressing, but there it is.