Renton 21270 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 7 minutes ago, Rayvin said: I genuinely think that's because they face electoral annihilation with any other political line. Single Market access makes the whole thing pointless, and exposes them entirely. It doesn't. It removes us from the political integration of the EU. That is pretty important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Just now, Renton said: It doesn't. It removes us from the political integration of the EU. That is pretty important. No it isn't. The 'people' want an end to freedom of movement. That's the thing this all hinges on. Staying in the single market, the Norway model, is an option that even Norway warned us was pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21270 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 1 minute ago, Rayvin said: Was that not their manifesto position? Their 2017 one? Don't know. But it wasn't on the referendum. Oh, and they didn't get a majority. No mandate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Just now, Renton said: Their 2017 one? Don't know. But it wasn't on the referendum. Oh, and they didn't get a majority. No mandate. Right but you can see why a government seeking legitimacy would use this. I'm not saying I agree with them, I'm saying that I can see why they have nowhere else to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21270 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Just now, Rayvin said: No it isn't. The 'people' want an end to freedom of movement. That's the thing this all hinges on. Staying in the single market, the Norway model, is an option that even Norway warned us was pointless. Prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, Renton said: Prove it. 47% of them, apparently, put down immigration as their leading reason for voting out. I dunno, I get what you're saying I suppose but it feels like it's the main issue to me. Why do you think the government is refusing to turn this around then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21270 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 1 minute ago, Rayvin said: 47% of them, apparently, put down immigration as their leading reason for voting out. I dunno, I get what you're saying I suppose but it feels like it's the main issue to me. Why do you think the government is refusing to turn this around then? 47% of 52% of 72%? What kind of mandate is that? I've no idea what is happening behind closed doors right now. Presumably May is filling her knickers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 (edited) The mandate is a separate issue - the mandate is what they're using to legitimise what they're doing, and it comes from the 2017 election rather than the referendum. "85% of elected MPs came from parties backing leaving the EU" is being trotted out a lot. If the Tories could climb down from this, which in fairness, Labour would have to do also, I think they would. They can't because the public isn't ready yet, IMO. Still need more things to go wrong - problem for them is that these things will go wrong on their watch. Edited December 5, 2017 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30240 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, Rayvin said: The mandate is a separate issue - the mandate is what they're using to legitimise what they're doing If it was in their manifesto, they don't have a majority in the HoC and therefore do not have a mandate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30240 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rayvin said: If the Tories could climb down from this, which in fairness, Labour would have to do also, I think they would. They can't because the public isn't ready yet, IMO. Still need more things to go wrong. Labour have just backed down from their CU/SM position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 1 minute ago, ewerk said: If it was in their manifesto, they don't have a majority in the HoC and therefore do not have a mandate. Yes but can you see why they're saying they do? And why they can't back down from that without undermining their entire government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 1 minute ago, ewerk said: Labour have just backed down from their CU/SM position. Labour are officially backing SM access? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30240 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Wouldn't be like a government to abandon manifesto promises. UKIP are dead and Labour can't use it against them in the next election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30240 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Just now, Rayvin said: Labour are officially backing SM access? Starmer attacked the Tories for their red line over SM. They used the protection of the union as an excuse. Just as I said earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Just now, ewerk said: Wouldn't be like a government to abandon manifesto promises. UKIP are dead and Labour can't use it against them in the next election. Again, just going off the Daily Mail, the levels of hate they're getting from people who voted Tory is a sight to behold... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30240 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Just now, Rayvin said: Again, just going off the Daily Mail, the levels of hate they're getting from people who voted Tory is a sight to behold... What's their alternative? UKIP are in tatters and have lost their biggest donor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 1 minute ago, ewerk said: Starmer attacked the Tories for their red line over SM. They used the protection of the union as an excuse. Just as I said earlier. I don't think that's the same as coming out and advocating for SM access, although it's laying the groundwork. Personally I would argue that they're tightening the screw but still leaving themselves room to back down if May manages to pull something off. If she fails, we might see Labour go fully forward on SM access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30240 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 They should be reinforcing the point for the rest of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, ewerk said: What's their alternative? UKIP are in tatters and have lost their biggest donor. Hopefully, Corbyn's Labour. Since it does have anti-establishment credentials, and it does have something to offer people beyond a version of Brexit that can't be realised. This is literally the only thing the Tories have to sell now as far as I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30240 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Labour aren't going to attract the type shouting on the DM comments sections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Just now, ewerk said: Labour aren't going to attract the type shouting on the DM comments sections. I dunno, I've seen some comments suggesting they will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30240 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Well if they can tempt CT to vote Labour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5176 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 I'm not saying a lot of them will tbf, but I think enough disaffected working classes can be won back here. I genuinely think the Tories consider Labour to be a serious threat now. And the more I think about it, the more I think that Corbyn himself, his existence, is what is forcing the Tories into hard Brexit. Depressing thought for me personally! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 19878 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/06/david-davis-excuses-missing-contingency-brexit-impact-plans-hilary-benn-committee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34821 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 10 minutes ago, wykikitoon said: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/06/david-davis-excuses-missing-contingency-brexit-impact-plans-hilary-benn-committee Jesus wept Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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