Politics

[Alex 35104]

Some of the criticism of him is way OTT because of the hand he's been dealt but I also share the concerns about his desire to actually lead the country. I think I said on here after the election that the role of valiant who turned around a majority and performed well above expectations is probably his dream scenario.

[Renton 21640]

9 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I just don't see this. No one in politics, currently, has the ability or credibility to come out and oppose Brexit successfully. The public needs to turn against it first. Labour could come out and oppose it on principle, which is what you seem to want, but it would be irrelevant because 1 - they would never get into power on that basis and 2 - not getting into power would prevent them from actually being able to do anything useful about it anyway.

 

You've got it the wrong way round, you've got the tail wagging the dog. The public need to be led. The reason it looks like the public can't be persuaded to avoid hard Brexit is because Corbyn is so pathetic.

 

Remember, only a third of the electorate voted Brexit, about one quarter of the population. That's three quarters of the population who didn't, many of whom will be able to vote now as they become 18. Meanwhile older people are dying off. And then I am sure we will buyers remorse as the economic realities unfold.

 

The large majority of people who didn't vote for Brexit or have changed their minds need galvanising by strong leadership. Corbyn just isn't that. 

[Alex 35104]

Is there a credible alternative to him though?

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Alex said:

Is there a credible alternative to him though?

 

I'm struggling to imagine that even peak era Tony Blair could undo this just through sheer force of will tbh. People are expecting the impossible from Corbyn here. The public was given control of this, so for all that such a scenario should never have happened, we have to accept that it did. Only the public can back us out of this now.

[Renton 21640]

5 minutes ago, Alex said:

Is there a credible alternative to him though?

That's a fair and depressing point. But it doesn't absolve Corbyn for not even trying imo. 

[Park Life 71]

Agree with Renty here. Labour have a weird and fluxious positon on Brexit and perhaps Corby as previously discussed is indeed an Eurosceptic.

[Park Life 71]

7 minutes ago, Alex said:

Is there a credible alternative to him though?

Lord Rafa of Wallsend on Tyne or perhaps Baron Harkonnen of cheese on Rye.

[Renton 21640]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'm struggling to imagine that even peak era Tony Blair could undo this just through sheer force of will tbh. People are expecting the impossible from Corbyn here. The public was given control of this, so for all that such a scenario should never have happened, we have to accept that it did. Only the public can back us out of this now.

 

But the "will of the people" is a myth that has been allowed to perpetuate because it has been unchallenged, in fact even reinforced, by the opposition.

 

Your the one banging on about the importance of narratives, which I am reluctantly beginning to agree with you more. Where's the counter narrative then? All we have is meek acceptance as our country heads for catastrophe. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Ok, someone play out to me what you realistically think would have happened if Corbyn had used yesterday's budget announcement as a springboard to turn the tables on Brexit.

[ewerk 30647]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

I'm struggling to imagine that even peak era Tony Blair could undo this just through sheer force of will tbh. People are expecting the impossible from Corbyn here. The public was given control of this, so for all that such a scenario should never have happened, we have to accept that it did. Only the public can back us out of this now.

 

What makes you think that the public don't want to opt out of Brexit? Only 42% believe that we should continue with Brexit.

[Meenzer 15552]

3 minutes ago, Park Life said:

Agree with Renty here. Labour have a weird and fluxious positon on Brexit and perhaps Corby as previously discussed is indeed an Eurosceptic.

 

Perhaps! There's no perhaps about it

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, ewerk said:

 

What makes you think that the public don't want to opt out of Brexit? Only 42% believe that we should continue with Brexit.

 

42% who absolutely will vote to secure it. How many of the remaining 58% could we rely on to vote the other way? It needs a proper outcry man.

[Rayvin 5223]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

But the "will of the people" is a myth that has been allowed to perpetuate because it has been unchallenged, in fact even reinforced, by the opposition.

 

Your the one banging on about the importance of narratives, which I am reluctantly beginning to agree with you more. Where's the counter narrative then? All we have is meek acceptance as our country heads for catastrophe. 

 

Labour's narrative is anti-establishment - which is also Brexit's. They would have to recast Brexit as an establishment move for any such narrative to work. I don't see how they do that, at the moment. The establishment clearly hate Brexit.

[ewerk 30647]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

42% who absolutely will vote to secure it. How many of the remaining 58% could we rely on to vote the other way? It needs a proper outcry man.

 

A lot more remainers would vote in a second referendum, that's for sure. Added to those who changed their mind should (in theory) secure a victory for remain.

 

Plus the next election isn't for four years which gives angry leavers time to calm down.

[ewerk 30647]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Ok, someone play out to me what you realistically think would have happened if Corbyn had used yesterday's budget announcement as a springboard to turn the tables on Brexit.

 

He doesn't have to outright come out and say that Brexit is bad. He begins by hammering the government's handling of Brexit and then begins to sew the seeds of doubt.

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

 

A lot more remainers would vote in a second referendum, that's for sure. Added to those who changed their mind should (in theory) secure a victory for remain.

 

Plus the next election isn't for four years which gives angry leavers time to calm down.

 

If that's the case then give it time - but now Renton has introduced narratives to the discussion, for the whole thing to fly politically, they'd still need an actual reason to have a second referendum. They still need something bad to happen (like, worse than what we've already seen).

[ewerk 30647]

A failure to proceed to trade talks in December?

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, ewerk said:

 

He doesn't have to outright come out and say that Brexit is bad. He begins by hammering the government's handling of Brexit and then begins to sew the seeds of doubt.

 

Labour has been hammering the government's handling of Brexit since the word go though. In fact, I could argue that they've been doing exactly what you've set out, and that the opinion polls turning against Brexit support this. Would be disingenuous as I don't actually know if it's true, but the argument could be made.

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, ewerk said:

A failure to proceed to trade talks in December?

 

I feel like it has to be something that kicks the public in the balls to be honest.

[ewerk 30647]

 

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

Labour has been hammering the government's handling of Brexit since the word go though. In fact, I could argue that they've been doing exactly what you've set out, and that the opinion polls turning against Brexit support this. Would be disingenuous as I don't actually know if it's true, but the argument could be made.

 

Yes but people don't generally pay attention to what Corbyn has to say. His post-Budget reaction was his chance to be heard.

[ewerk 30647]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

I feel like it has to be something that kicks the public in the balls to be honest.

 

That's not how it's likely to work. Maybe the closing of a massive car plant might do it but it would be irresponsible of Labour to leave it that long.

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, ewerk said:

 

 

Yes but people don't generally pay attention to what Corbyn has to say. His post-Budget reaction was his chance to be heard.

 

Yeah maybe. I mean I dunno. To be honest, I'm not being willfully blind to the possibility that he could just be exactly what you're saying. Weak and pro-Brexit. That's definitely a leading possibility.

[Renton 21640]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

If that's the case then give it time - but now Renton has introduced narratives to the discussion, for the whole thing to fly politically, they'd still need an actual reason to have a second referendum. They still need something bad to happen (like, worse than what we've already seen).

We need a referendum on the destination. Not a second referendum, a first referendum on a different question. No reasonable person can object to this. If Corbyn can't get this to fly, he's beyond useless. But as Ewerk says, it requires a nuanced approach. I don't see any evidence of this though, in fact, has Corbyn not even ruled out an additional referendum?

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

 

That's not how it's likely to work. Maybe the closing of a massive car plant might do it but it would be irresponsible of Labour to leave it that long.

 

True, it's a big gamble.

[Renton 21640]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I feel like it has to be something that kicks the public in the balls to be honest.

 Ahh, you mean a cliff edge Brexit? Too late.