Park Life 71 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Just Blair's excesses? Honestly, we are desperate for an effective opposition in this country but Corbyn has decided his MPs must support the government. His leadership is beyond pathetic and he is heading to electoral annihilation. Agree here. Labour should be holding the Govt. to account in every detail of Brexit and if they are socialists they should be blocking Brexit at every turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) Agree here. Labour should be holding the Govt. to account in every detail of Brexit and if they are socialists they should be blocking Brexit at every turn. How do you figure on that last part? I can actually see the left wing rationale for supporting Brexit. Follows along the lines of the EU being a vehicle for Neoliberalism, globalisation and corporate ideals. On the other hand, the EU does a lot of good from a socialist viewpoint as well, with respect of workers rights and collective bargaining power. This is why I think Corbyn is lukewarm on it. Edited January 29, 2017 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) How do you figure on that last part? I can actually see the left wing rationale for supporting Brexit. Follows along the lines of the EU being a vehicle for Neoliberalism, globalisation and corporate ideals. On the other hand, the EU does a lot of good from a socialist viewpoint as well, with respect of workers rights and collective bargaining power. This is why I think Corbyn is lukewarm on it. The simple fact is that Labour are in no position to fight for peoples rights at the moment and should be pulling out all the stops to remain under the EU social contract and other freedoms. The Tories are looking to erode all sorts of things once out. The Neo-Lib financial policies of the EU and the corporate power that has usurped part of it is a battle for a later date. Edited January 29, 2017 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 I don't disagree there, but he's too principled for that level of pragmatism. I think we have to accept that Brexit has turned us into a one party state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22518 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Corbyn is so principled he campaigned for brexit even though he's always been a massI've eurosceptic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4966 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 I don't disagree there, but he's too principled for that level of pragmatism. I think we have to accept that Brexit has turned us into a one party state. Jeremy Corbyn isn't principled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4446 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Corbyn is so principled he campaigned for brexit even though he's always been a massI've eurosceptic.Yes, but should a leader of a party accept an agreed policy or lay down his law a la Blair/Thatcher? I think it's up to a leader to set out their views as the ideal but if conference goes the other way then it's not asking too much of them to back it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Corbyn is so principled he campaigned for brexit even though he's always been a massI've eurosceptic. He campaigned by saying 'there's lots wrong with Europe but we can change that if we remain'. Which I suspect actually was his position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Jeremy Corbyn isn't principled. I disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4966 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 I disagree. I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 I know. Well at least we're on the same page on that front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7312 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Jeremy Corbyn isn't principled. Behave man He's chucking the election because he refuses to budge from his principles. He could have walked the next GE if he budged 10% towards the centre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35916 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Behave man He's chucking the election because he refuses to budge from his principles. He could have walked the next GE if he budged 10% towards the centre His policies barely matter because he's such a shit leader.the idea he could walk a GE even against this fucking joke of a government is so laughable I feel like I've wasted a bit of my life even replying even though I'm having a dump. I suspect your position is borne out of kidding yourself you and your ilk aren't at least partly responsible for giving the Tories free reign for the next decade or so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22518 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 you and your ilk? fighting talk in anyone's book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35916 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) you and your ilk? fighting talk in anyone's book I meant People who became members to elect Corbyn as leader. In retrospect I probably owe lots of them an apology Edited January 29, 2017 by Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35916 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) I might also add I think he's trying to get a win the next election with the poxy bits of policy him and his fucking shite advisors come up with as opposed to 'chucking' it because principles are more important than winning Edited January 29, 2017 by Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew 4966 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Behave man He's chucking the election because he refuses to budge from his principles. He could have walked the next GE if he budged 10% towards the centre Right, so he's incredibly stupid then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7312 Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 His policies barely matter because he's such a shit leader.the idea he could walk a GE even against this fucking joke of a government is so laughable I feel like I've wasted a bit of my life even replying even though I'm having a dump. I suspect your position is borne out of kidding yourself you and your ilk aren't at least partly responsible for giving the Tories free reign for the next decade or so Getting angry on the toilet isn't going to do much to change it? What's your role in altering all of this? Or do you and your ilk just get shouty on the internet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 47074 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I hope you and your ilk have washed your hands, Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22518 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I know his ilk - standing wipers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 47074 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Oh God, he's vegetarian as well. Must be like Jackson Pollock's brown period back there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35916 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Right, so he's incredibly stupid then? He's making your point for you really. Not that I agree that is what is happening but, by his argument, If the bloke is so 'principled' that he's forfeiting the chance to affect actual change in people's lives just so he doesn't have to compromise then he's a monumental cunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 He's making your point for you really. Not that I agree that is what is happening but, by his argument, If the bloke is so 'principled' that he's forfeiting the chance to affect actual change in people's lives just so he doesn't have to compromise then he's a monumental cunt. To actually achieve meaningful change, you need to make sacrifices. I could not be more convinced that change of any significance is impossible under the current system. I've supported Corbyn on the grounds that if he didn't move, he would force people to choose. Rather than just pick one of two parties that basically deliver the same things with some slight nuances. The problem for me is that it's easy or me to make that sacrifice as I'm not vulnerable. Which is why I didn't vote for him last time out. That said, if there's enough people who are still desperate to force change and aren't vulnerable enough to be worn down into submission on the issue, good luck to them. I rather fancy that isn't the case though, and I expect Corbyn will be replaced soon. The problem then for me is that I'll not be able to vote for anyone. But at least we'll have a centreground approved labour government back in the mix for all of you who think that's enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35916 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Getting angry on the toilet isn't going to do much to change it? What's your role in altering all of this? Or do you and your ilk just get shouty on the internet? It's a combination of amusement and bemusement rather than anger but whatever. Supporting Corbyn in the first place was fine and he was certainly worth giving a chance under the circumstances and the lack of alternatives but continuing to support him is basically doing what he's doing, i.e. giving arguably the most ideological unpleasant government in living memory free reign. He's had his opportunity and all he's shown himself to be an abject failure as a potential PM. As for me, I don't have a lot of power to change things living in one of the safest seats in the country in a FPTP electoral system. I do wonder what your role will be once you and the student wankers who elected Corbyn get bored / grow up etc. You're fond of taking the piss out of the likes of Renton but, whether you like it or not, many long-term activists like him have been alienated. You'll probably expect them to pick up the pieces when Corbyn inevitably stands down just after or before the next GE. And do you seriously think what you've done, i.e. paid a small fee and but a cross in a box in any way compares to the contribution of people like that. Have a fucking word with yourself man :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35916 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 To actually achieve meaningful change, you need to make sacrifices. I could not be more convinced that change of any significance is impossible under the current system. I've supported Corbyn on the grounds that if he didn't move, he would force people to choose. Rather than just pick one of two parties that basically deliver the same things with some slight nuances. The problem for me is that it's easy or me to make that sacrifice as I'm not vulnerable. Which is why I didn't vote for him last time out. That said, if there's enough people who are still desperate to force change and aren't vulnerable enough to be worn down into submission on the issue, good luck to them. I rather fancy that isn't the case though, and I expect Corbyn will be replaced soon. The problem then for me is that I'll not be able to vote for anyone. But at least we'll have a centreground approved labour government back in the mix for all of you who think that's enough. By adopting that stance you're giving your tacit approval to the status quo anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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