Dr Gloom 21923 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 On the first part - I choose not to see that distinction, sorry. I choose to just look at what the institution, state, political party, whatever, is responsible for. Whether one side has been called a terrorist organisation or not makes no odds to me. What matters is who is killing who, why, and with how many deaths. Presumably if the tables were turned (and we still supported Israel), Hamas would be a 'fascist dictatorship' and Israel would be freedom fighters. If you take the labels away, just look at who is doing what. In terms of Corbyn's involvement, he just sticks to his principles. I really don't see why this bothers so many people. I couldn't care less what the MSM thinks of him, I really couldn't. I'll just look at what he says, and what he does, when it comes to policies. And I've seen him out speaking about giving people a better life in the city centre in Newcastle, I've seen him stick to his guns on issues he believes in despite media attacks, and I've seen the whole Labour party try to kick him out and his success in beating them back. I'll worry about anti-semitism in Labour when it comes to more than just a few randoms making stupid comments. Incidentally, Naz Shah and Livingstone were both in Labour before Corbyn was leader weren't they? What was Miliband doing to tackle their anti-semitic beliefs exactly? It's not like, all of a sudden, Corbyn got in and they went to the dark side. regarding corbyn's principled stance, i used to agree with you. post-brexit, i tend to think he's just as bad as the rest. the livingstone/shah comments emerged on corbyn's watch, so he has to be judged on how they're dealt with - i give him the failing grade for re-admitting naz shah, though tbf livingstone did have history of it. clearly we're never going to agree here, but i think you can make a distinction. i can't stand the lukid or the ultra othodox who want to build settlements in the occupied territories, and these fanatical cunts receive way too much power from the israeli state by the way. but last time i checked it wasn't official israeli policy to wipe off the palestinians from the face of the planet. plenty of palestinians live in israel and the majority of israelis have historically favoured a two state solution. i do wonder about your earlier point though and whether things have gone too far for there ever to be peace in the region. the prospect of endless generations of bloodshed on both sides to come seems a pretty depressing reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 I'll add in that the Jewish people have also successfully integrated secularism into many of their systems and have culturally contributed to the West. Something I'm sorry to say most Muslim peoples have struggled with. Massive generalisation with some truth in it I suspect. I think that's, generally, fair. But Palestine and Israel aren't the West. And indeed, you could argue that Jewish people going into Palestine and setting up their own state is exactly what extreme Muslims want to do in Western countries. So it's easy to see why the people who were forced to accept this, remain pissed off. If it had happened to us, I would be. Israel has a responsibility, moreso than other nations, to peacefully co-exist with those around it. It is now incapable of this as it burned too many bridges, and killed too many people in the run up to its establishment. Look at this list of killings before Palestine was split up, and who becomes predominantly responsible for them in the run up to WWII. Those would be terrorists in this day and age incidentally. And those terrorists inherited a nation. The terrorists on the other side, continued to be just terrorists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine All I'm saying is, this 'nationhood' that Israel has makes its killing no more credible now than it was back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 regarding corbyn's principled stance, i used to agree with you. post-brexit, i tend to think he's just as bad as the rest. the livingstone/shah comments emerged on corbyn's watch, so he has to be judged on how they're dealt with - i give him the failing grade for re-admitting naz shah, though tbf livingstone did have history of it. clearly we're never going to agree here, but i think you can make a distinction. i can't stand the lukid or the ultra othodox who want to build settlements in the occupied territories, and these fanatical cunts receive way too much power from the israeli state by the way. but last time i checked it wasn't official israeli policy to wipe off the palestinians from the face of the planet. plenty of palestinians live in israel and the majority of israelis have historically favoured a two state solution. i do wonder about your earlier point though and whether things have gone too far for there ever to be peace in the region. the prospect of endless generations of bloodshed on both sides to come seems a pretty depressing reality. My view on the conflict now is that the only way it will end is when Israel has fully subjugated what's left of Palestine, and essentially kicked all dissidents out of the country or had them all shot. I'm not saying that's what will happen - I think there'll be endless violence instead. But the only way to peace from here would be if they just got on with it, killed/evicted literally everyone who doesn't like them, and then got on with life. Hamas can't ever win, so the longer it goes on, the more deaths across generations we will have. Either Israel wins an absolute victory, or no one does. Rationally, that's the only way. I actually suspect that the Israeli government has come to the same conclusion, and if the world wasn't watching, would have 'resolved' this by now. As for Corbyn - I just don't see that it's anything more than a distraction at this point. I do take the point about leadership I suppose, but that's not what I'm voting for him based on. I'm voting for the policies. I guess that's why I find it so easy to overlook the rest. I see him as leading 600,000 people, not just the PLP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21923 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 My view on the conflict now is that the only way it will end is when Israel has fully subjugated what's left of Palestine, and essentially kicked all dissidents out of the country or had them all shot. I'm not saying that's what will happen - I think there'll be endless violence instead. But the only way to peace from here would be if they just got on with it, killed/evicted literally everyone who doesn't like them, and then got on with life. Hamas can't ever win, so the longer it goes on, the more deaths across generations we will have. Either Israel wins an absolute victory, or no one does. Rationally, that's the only way. I actually suspect that the Israeli government has come to the same conclusion, and if the world wasn't watching, would have 'resolved' this by now. As for Corbyn - I just don't see that it's anything more than a distraction at this point. I do take the point about leadership I suppose, but that's not what I'm voting for him based on. I'm voting for the policies. I guess that's why I find it so easy to overlook the rest. I see him as leading 600,000 people, not just the PLP. You realise that about 20% of israel's population are arabs of palestinian descent who are in no danger of being killed or evicted? Sure they suffer from prejudice given the ongoing tensions, but I'm pretty sure most who live there are happier than those who live in Gaza under Hamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 In the BBC interview, Mr Woolfe said he had told Mr Hookem "let's go outside and discuss this man-to-man" after they clashed during UKIP's meeting in the European Parliament, saying he had been suggesting they discuss their differences verbally. Aye, because offering someone outside man-to-man clearly means you want to talk about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 He's quit I gather. UKIP looked fucked to me. Tearing themselves apart more efficiently than even Labour were now. Good news, they can fuck off. Apparently a nothing party without Farage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21625 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 You're wrong. Pretty sure CT predicted them as taking the mantel of official opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21923 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 On the money as always Been a bit quiet of late hasn't he, the board's slimmest poster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35082 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Good. Re: UKIP and CT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21923 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Thatcher snatches win from Cameron in vote on century's worst PM https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/oct/18/margaret-thatcher-snatches-win-from-david-cameron-in-vote-on-centurys-worst-pm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 (edited) I heartily agree that Nigel Farage and Trump are grotesques. But the free-traders peddle their own untruths. They have insistedthat black is white, even as the voters beg to differ. In their seminar rooms, their TV studios and their Geneva offices, they have perpetrated the ideological sleight of hand that equates internationalism with free trade, and globalisation with untrammelled corporate power. The result has been misery for workers from Bolton to Baltimore to Bangladesh. But it has also left the six-figure technocrats who supervise our economic system pushing a zombie idea. Because that is what free trade has become: an idea leached of life and meaning but stumbling on for want of any replacement. We have a globalisation for bankers, but not for children fleeing the bombs of Syria. Security for investors but not for workers." "To see how debased the notion of free trade has become, look at the deal between Canada and the EU that is currently being voted through Europe’s parliaments. It’s called the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (Ceta), and the fact that you can see it at all is largely down to leaks of the documents, which forced the European commission to publish,. That is after the negotiations were conducted for five years in secret, with even the directives kept hidden from the hundreds of millions of citizens affected. This is no minor technical work. Provided it is passed in time, Ceta will apply to Britain too – and parts of it will affect Britons’ lives even after we’ve “taken back control”. It has been billed as “a backdoor for TTIP”, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, which collapsed this summer amid public opposition both in Europe and the US. Like TTIP, Ceta includes the investor-state dispute settlement system – which hands big business the power to sue governments, including for profits they haven’t made yet. A US multinational with an office in Canada (nearly all of them) will be able to sue Britons for bringing in laws that lose them money. This was the mechanism tobacco giant Philip Morris used to sue Australia’s government for bringing in plain packaging. On that occasion, Big Tobacco was unsuccessful – but it took four years of expensive legal battle." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/19/free-trade-broken-idea-elites-deals-ceta-ttip-economic Edited October 19, 2016 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21625 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 See there was a Labour swing in the Witney by-election yesterday. A swing the wrong way to put Labour in third place....... I await corbyn's positive spin on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I imagine it'll be along the lines of how they won by-elections elsewhere? A shame though, although at least it went to the Liberals rather than the Tories. Maybe because of the EU solution they're proposing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) I've just read that the another seat up for by-election was vacated by a Labour chap who quit after biting some kid's nose Can't imagine that being a vote winner. Edited October 21, 2016 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21625 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I imagine it'll be along the lines of how they won by-elections elsewhere? A shame though, although at least it went to the Liberals rather than the Tories. Maybe because of the EU solution they're proposing. The swing went LD, aye. A worrying example of how the anti-tory vote will be split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44879 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I haven't seen a photo of Theresa May that doesn't make me ill. It should be illegal to be that ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21923 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 what you saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 The swing went LD, aye. A worrying example of how the anti-tory vote will be split. Ever since I was quite young, that's what I thought about the LDs. Just splitting the left wing vote. What I don't think they realised when they had their brief stay in power is that their support was coming from the left as much as it was the centre. They were the trendy alternative for students. But of course you're right, all it serves to do is prop up the Tories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21923 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 tell me you wouldn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I haven't seen a photo of Theresa May that doesn't make me ill. It should be illegal to be that ugly. Re-living the Nosferatu in drag post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35082 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 what you saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21923 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30610 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 The woman is 60 now ffs. What do you expect? Back in the day though she was a right looker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeys Fist 42443 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 The woman is 60 now ffs. What do you expect? Back in the day though she was a right looker. That's our dear, departed taxi friend in his weekend garb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35082 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Rita, Sue and Bob Too - The Tory Years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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