Politics

[Dr Gloom 22542]

The United States revoked his passport after he left Hong Kong and before he landed in Russia en route to havana. He's like Tom Hank's in that film where he's stuck in the terminal. Forget what it was called. Except he's not bucking Zeta Jones.

Blowing the whistle on US snooping was admirable but the fact he's taken refuge under war criminal Putin completely undermines his actions. He should go home and face the music.

[Dr Gloom 22542]

You've framed this as a left wing issue so at the risk of poking the hornet nest, is Russian carpet bombing of civilians worse than our carpet bombing of civilians? In other words, are they collateral or are they actually being targeted? Remember that we have a track record of blowing up hospitals and red cross outposts which many people on here have argued is unfortunate but, as they're collateral, isn't morally equivalent to murder or terrorism. I disagree with this when you know that these places are going to be hit as part of an action you're taking, but apparently others don't. Have the Russians made clear that they're attacking random civilians on principle or something?

 

Also the coalitions you mention are there to stop our atrocities, not Russia's. I think we can safely assume that they condemn the Russian bombings.

 

That said, Russia seriously pisses me off with all of this nonsense. I can see why they feel the need to present a strong front to the Americans but I thought they'd established a little while ago that their approach of blowing everything up wasn't working. Both sides need to step down from this war, it's become fucking ridiculous. Aren't we all supposedly there for ISIS? Are they even still in Syria? How has this whole fiasco not been resolved yet?

 

Why we or any other country entertain these fucked up wars is beyond me. I agree with gloom that media focus should be put on it though. Pictures of wounded and dead. Same as I think they should do this when we're responsible.

The line the Russian twat at the UN offered up about the Rebel terrorists using civilians as human shields is exactly the same shit Israel comes out with. And yet I don't hear any principled cries from the left about Russian imperialism or any demands for boycotts of Russia.

 

Are Russian atrocities somehow more forgivable than Zionist atrocities to Corbyn and his ilk? Does the stop the war coalition only care about stopping wars the west and its allies are involved in? What Russia is doing is a absolutely disgraceful and deplorable and should be condemned just as loudly by self righteous lefties.

 

Corbyn is probably too busy basking in the glory of his election victory, perhaps he's even treated himself to a sugar free biscuit.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 22542]

Just you wait til Corbyn takes power and he sends in his Peace and Disarmament minister.

He'll hit them with a major, and I mean major, leaflet campaign.

[Gemmill 47143]

Corbyn getting the blame for Russia bombing Syria. [emoji38]

[Rayvin 5572]

The line the Russian twat at the UN offered up about the Rebel terrorists using civilians as human shields is exactly the same shit Israel comes out with. And yet I don't hear any principled cries from the left about Russian imperialism or any demands for boycotts of Russia.

Are Russian atrocities somehow more forgivable than Zionist atrocities to Corbyn and his ilk? Does the stop the war coalition only care about stopping wars the west and its allies are involved in? What Russia is doing is a absolutely disgraceful and deplorable and should be condemned just as loudly by self righteous lefties.

Corbyn is probably too busy basking in the glory of his election victory, perhaps he's even treated himself to a sugar free biscuit.

How do we stop the Russians exactly? Corbyn has spoken on this back in December last year and made some incredibly wise comments with respect of whether or not the UK should become involved. You seem to be wanting him and the left to virtue signal here more than anything else. I'm left wing, I can assure you that I condemn the Russians.

 

There's no point in him making a statement on this until the government does so. I can't actually recall him making a statement on Israel while he's been leader either, actually. Let's be clear though, Russia may be hitting civilians as collateral, the Israeli army is somewhat more questionable.

[Dr Gloom 22542]

Corbyn getting the blame for Russia bombing Syria. [emoji38]

No, not blaming him, but where is the public outcry at these war crimes? Where is the self righteous indignation? The threats to boycott Russia? Why all the talk of western imperial ambitions and fuck all when it comes to Russia commiting atrocities?

 

That's my beef with the left in this country. Self flagellating navel gazers.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 22542]

How do we stop the Russians exactly? Corbyn has spoken on this back in December last year and made some incredibly wise comments with respect of whether or not the UK should become involved. You seem to be wanting him and the left to virtue signal here more than anything else. I'm left wing, I can assure you that I condemn the Russians.

 

There's no point in him making a statement on this until the government does so. I can't actually recall him making a statement on Israel while he's been leader either, actually. Let's be clear though, Russia may be hitting civilians as collateral, the Israeli army is somewhat more questionable.

The Russians are carpet bombing civilian areas and have reduced what was once Syria's financial capital to rubble. They're using bunker busting bombs designed to destroy underground military installations in civilian areas. They bombed trucks carrying UN aid workers. And now they're even bombing water supplies in eastern Aleppo, which are already scarce.

 

What they are doing is just as bad as anything Israel has done. No question about it. Arguably worse when you consider how concentrated it's been and the number of civilian casualties in such a short space of time.

 

I don't know how to stop Russia short of world war lll. It's pursuing imperial ambitions, just as the west has done. The difference is the west has been rightly criticised and condemned by the liberal left wing for launching illegal wars and pursuing misguided foreign policy. I don't hear the same criticism about Russia is doing now. Why do you suppose that is?

[NJS 4446]

So when the USSR was communist, western lefties were useless for ignoring their crimes and now its a capitalist and virtually fascist regime its still up to lefties to hold them to account?

 

Yeah right.

[Rayvin 5572]

The Russians are carpet bombing civilian areas and have reduced what was once Syria's financial capital to rubble. They're using bunker busting bombs designed to destroy underground military installations in civilian areas. They bombed trucks carrying UN aid workers. And now they're even bombing water supplies in eastern Aleppo, which are already scarce.

 

What they are doing is just as bad as anything Israel has done. No question about it. Arguably worse when you consider how concentrated it's been and the number of civilian casualties in such a short space of time.

 

I don't know how to stop Russia short of world war lll. It's pursuing imperial ambitions, just as the west has done. The difference is the west has been rightly criticised and condemned by the liberal left wing for launching illegal wars and pursuing misguided foreign policy. I don't hear the same criticism about Russia is doing now. Why do you suppose that is?

 

Probably because the establishment has it covered? If we were in bed with the Russians and engaging in covering up what they're doing, the left would be up in arms. But we aren't - we're calling them out for what they are through the establishment media outlets. The left picks a bone with Israel and the west because we cover up the shit that we do. It needs to be exposed. There is no cover up of Russian imperialism. It's there for all to see. The only thing the left could arguably do to up the ante at this point is demand some manner of governmental militaristic response (aren't we already sanctioning Russia?). That's not in the lefty phrasebook though, so there's literally nothing to be said here.

 

I think the better question is, why do YOU think they aren't saying anything. Is it because they're all commies?

 

As for Russia - it's not going to come to global war. The West, and I agree with the establishment on this, sadly, is not going to run the risk of a global humanitarian catastrophe that would be world war III for the sake of Syria. Even if the Russians burn it to the ground. I don't even think the Russians would want that. There will be some manner of de-escalation shortly, I'm sure.

[Happy Face 29]

Corbyn getting the blame for Russia bombing Syria. [emoji38]

 

Huh? Thought that was Snowden?

[ewerk 31600]

I blame Assange.

[PaddockLad 17974]

In what way is carpet bombing civilians better than targeted strikes that miss their targets? Hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the last 25 years in places like Aleppo, Bhagdad, Gaza and Afghanistan don't give a fuck who's flag is on the misfile, or if someone in Brize Norton or Arizona was driving it. Makes fuck all difference to them so singling out Russia is pointless iyam. Obviously Corbyns fault though....to sone anyway

[Dr Gloom 22542]

Probably because the establishment has it covered? If we were in bed with the Russians and engaging in covering up what they're doing, the left would be up in arms. But we aren't - we're calling them out for what they are through the establishment media outlets. The left picks a bone with Israel and the west because we cover up the shit that we do. It needs to be exposed. There is no cover up of Russian imperialism. It's there for all to see. The only thing the left could arguably do to up the ante at this point is demand some manner of governmental militaristic response (aren't we already sanctioning Russia?). That's not in the lefty phrasebook though, so there's literally nothing to be said here.

 

I think the better question is, why do YOU think they aren't saying anything. Is it because they're all commies?

 

As for Russia - it's not going to come to global war. The West, and I agree with the establishment on this, sadly, is not going to run the risk of a global humanitarian catastrophe that would be world war III for the sake of Syria. Even if the Russians burn it to the ground. I don't even think the Russians would want that. There will be some manner of de-escalation shortly, I'm sure.

 

it's because they're self-hating navel gazers, who only criticise the western imperialism and stay silent in the face of one of the worst massacres in recent times. they're basically hypocrites because what they're seeing unfold right now doesn't fit with the narrative that the west is responsible for all the world's ills. 

 

why don't we hear the same outcry about russia? i'm genuinely stumped on that one. perhaps the stop the war coalition should change their name to the 'stop the western-led war coalition' 

[Dr Gloom 22542]

In what way is carpet bombing civilians better than targeted strikes that miss their targets? Hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the last 25 years in places like Aleppo, Bhagdad, Gaza and Afghanistan don't give a fuck who's flag is on the misfile, or if someone in Brize Norton or Arizona was driving it. Makes fuck all difference to them so singling out Russia is pointless iyam. Obviously Corbyns fault though....to sone anyway

 

some of the stuff  the west has done in those countries is awful and is widely criticised in corbynista circles - rightly so. that's exactly the point. 

[Dr Gloom 22542]

apologies if i'm ranting a bit today, but shit happens when you spend your first monday of the working week trawling through graphic images of bloodied children, bodies being dragged out of buildings and crippled civilians, covered in dust and blood, who have had limbs blown off. 

[Rayvin 5572]

it's because they're self-hating navel gazers, who only criticise the western imperialism and stay silent in the face of one of the worst massacres in recent times. they're basically hypocrites because what they're seeing unfold right now doesn't fit with the narrative that the west is responsible for all the world's ills. 

 

why don't we hear the same outcry about russia? i'm genuinely stumped on that one. perhaps the stop the war coalition should change their name to the 'stop the western-led war coalition' 

 

I mean, ignoring for a moment that in terms of creating the environment for this to happen, the West absolutely does share in responsibility here, Stop the War have made the following comments:

 

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/news-comment/2174-syria-ceasefire-no-lasting-peace

 

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/news-comment/2184-syria-foreign-intervention-and-the-end-of-the-ceasefire

 

They are calling for all foreign intervention in Syria to end. Not just the Russians, all of it. Does that help? 

 

They also have this article detailing talking points at a convention, which makes reference to the media calling them pro-Russian:

 

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/news-comment/2190-a-chance-to-break-with-our-addiction-to-war

 

Excerpt:

 

The conference will reaffirm the centrality of an anti-war movement — the largest and most significant in any Nato country — and the continued need to oppose British imperialism and its allies.

 

This does not mean supporting British imperialism’s opponents. We have repeatedly been accused of being pro-Taliban, pro-Saddam, pro Gaddafi and pro-Assad. We are also accused of being pro-Russia.

 

In fact, we have repeatedly condemned all foreign interventions in Syria and elsewhere, and have condemned all bombing which in every case results in the deaths of innocent civilians and often also helps fuel greater opposition.

 

Those who attack us — and by extension Corbyn — are the same people who want to diminish criticisms of Blair and Cameron (and Brown, who continued a heavy involvement in Afghanistan), and who cheerled every escalation of war, every new intervention.

 

They are the same people who voted for bombing Syria last December and were willing to suck up every one of Cameron’s lies to do so.

 

As a disclaimer - I know very little about this organisation, but from the three articles I've just read and linked to here, it seems that they're an anti-Western imperialism organisation. Not a global anti-imperialism organisation. So they're doing exactly what they should be doing, based on their stated aims, aren't they?

 

I think the last statement is particularly interesting.

[Happy Face 29]

Blowing the whistle on US snooping was admirable but the fact he's taken refuge under war criminal Putin completely undermines his actions. He should go home and face the music.

 

He should be pardoned as a protected whistle blower

[Rayvin 5572]

apologies if i'm ranting a bit today, but shit happens when you spend your first monday of the working week trawling through graphic images of bloodied children, bodies being dragged out of buildings and crippled civilians, covered in dust and blood, who have had limbs blown off. 

 

I fully understand your views on this fwiw, it's despicable what the Russians are doing. No one is arguing that point. I'm just not sure that your ire is well directed at Corbyn on this one (and stop the war, who seem to be campaigning, albeit not as extensively as you would like, against Britain being involved in the very actions you're condemning).

 

That sounds like a grim Monday though. What is it you do again?

[Dr Gloom 22542]

video journalism. 

[Dr Gloom 22542]

He should be pardoned as a protected whistle blower

 

i agree. do you agree that there's hypocrisy seeking refuge in russia? 

[Happy Face 29]

i agree. do you agree that there's hypocrisy seeking refuge in russia? 

 

He never sought refuge in Russia until his route to South America was interrupted and he was stranded in a Russian airport without a passport.

 

While in Russia he has consistently criticised Russian policies.

[Rayvin 5572]

He's never sought refuge in Russia.  His route to South America was interrupted and he was stranded in Russia without a passport.

 

While in Russia he has consistently criticised Russian policies.

 

Is that true? Brave as fuck if so... like what?

[Dr Gloom 22542]

i must have missed this story first time around. he'll need to watch his words if he doesn't want to go the way of pussy riot 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/snowden-denounces-russias-unworkable-and-unjustifiable-surveilla/

[Happy Face 29]

Is that true? Brave as fuck if so... like what?

 

September 2015 - Internet and homophobia

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/05/snowden-criticises-russia-internet-homosexuality

 

June 2016 - Surveillence law

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/world/europe/edward-snowden-criticizes-big-brother-measure-in-russia.html

 

A fortnight ago - Human Rights and hacking

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/10/star-treks-zachary-quinto-calls-for-return-of-edward-snowden

[Rayvin 5572]

I reckon that gets him past the hypocrite accusation...? Seems consistent to me.