ewerk 30221 Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 If it was a mistake, and I'm prepared to accept that it might well have been even though we'll never actually know how things would have turned out if the PLP had actually just supported the guy, it should have been allowed to run its course and collapse of its own accord. The PLP, in resisting in the way they are, have ensured that Labour (as CT says) won't get a sniff. Corbyn in power might have cost them one election. What they've done now has probably destroyed the party. If this was a mistake, it was compounded on all sides by political incompetence. I disagree with Corbyn on a number of things and frankly would be happy enough with Smith in and of himself - but the PLP... even if Labour survived this and got rid of Corbyn, I don't think I could vote for them again. They won't just lose the next election with Corbyn, they'll get the shit kicked out of them. Then it'll have been 15 years with a Tory MP and no meaningful opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Have a listen to those podcasts I mentioned which Alex linked to. Place yourself as an elected labour MP. After his Brexit no show could you accept his leadership? I honestly couldn't. When the likes of Alan Johnson are that critical, you know something is seriously wrong. They were gunning for him long before Brexit, although I can see why people lost faith in him then. I think the real issue here in terms of our outlooks are that you trust these people. And I just don't - which is kind of sad really. It's not a sudden thing for me though, I voted for Labour at the GE but was annoyed at the time as I didn't really believe in anything the Labour Party were saying. I felt that there was no true democracy in this country because all the parties looked the same. Then Corbyn came along. When he goes - and he will - I'll probably go back to feeling like we have no real choice in how anything is run because the whole system is entirely curtailed by the establishment's pre-vetted and accepted options and the bought and paid for media. I'm too cynical to go back to that and embrace it. They won't just lose the next election with Corbyn, they'll get the shit kicked out of them. Then it'll have been 15 years with a Tory MP and no meaningful opposition. You have a more optimistic view than I do. I think they're going to cease as a party full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4679 Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 If it was a mistake, and I'm prepared to accept that it might well have been even though we'll never actually know how things would have turned out if the PLP had actually just supported the guy, it should have been allowed to run its course and collapse of its own accord. The PLP, in resisting in the way they are, have ensured that Labour (as CT says) won't get a sniff. Corbyn in power might have cost them one election. What they've done now has probably destroyed the party. If this was a mistake, it was compounded on all sides by political incompetence. I disagree with Corbyn on a number of things and frankly would be happy enough with Smith in and of himself - but the PLP... even if Labour survived this and got rid of Corbyn, I don't think I could vote for them again. The thing is it's not about Corbyn, it's about momentum. By the time he goes, the damage will be done and they will control everything. The NEC, the local parties and eventually whatever's left of the PLP. It's not a mood swing to the left that will rebound this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) How can momentum control everything if they're still bound by the same systems that allowed for the PLP, who formerly 'controlled everything', to fall away? They'd have to change the systems. If they did that, Membership would haemorrhage. Same as what will happen if the PLP change the systems. Edited August 19, 2016 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4679 Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 How can momentum control everything if they're still bound by the same systems that allowed for the PLP, who formerly 'controlled everything', to fall away? They'd have to change the systems. If they did that, Membership would haemorrhage. Same as what will happen if the PLP change the systems. Why do you think the NEC has just been boosted by a whole load of momentum backed members? So they can change the rules to suit their agenda. As for the membership, there's probably now more momentum than traditional members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30221 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Jeremy Corben is a LIAR who cannot be trusted. https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room/#/pressreleases/virgin-trains-clarifies-labour-leaders-claim-of-ram-packed-service-1530005 #notinmyname #blacklivesmatter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34786 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Jeremy Corben is a LIAR who cannot be trusted. https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/media-room/#/pressreleases/virgin-trains-clarifies-labour-leaders-claim-of-ram-packed-service-1530005 #notinmyname #blacklivesmatter What a tit Plus loads of reserved seats aren't taken up anyway on most journeys. Quality response from Virgin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Politicians... I dunno, maybe this is what it takes to be 'electable'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Then again, there's now a counter narrative afoot with Corbyn's story being endorsed by many other people who were also sat on the floor. Someone has also pointed out that Virgin may not take kindly to Corbyn's attempts to nationalise. So that's muddied the hell up again. At the end of the day though, this story really isn't that big a deal, and it's currently headlining in the Guardian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 All the utilities and rail should be nationalized immediately. All built up using decades of taxpayer money and handed over to sharks. Train services is a joke in the UK. Overpriced, bad timekeeping and reeling with cancellations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30221 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 At the end of the day though, this story really isn't that big a deal, and it's currently headlining in the Guardian. The embattled leader of the opposition entirely fabricating a story in order to push his policy and improve his chances of staying in his job is definitely a big deal. This is Watergate level shit right here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I wasn't actually sure if you were joking up until the Watergate remark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30221 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I'm only half joking. Corbyn has portrayed himself to be above the normal political tricks and lies but looks to have been caught out big time here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/passengers-dispute-virgin-trains-version-of-jeremy-corbyn-sitting-on-floor-video-a7205631.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Passengers disputing it - it's muddy enough now that no one will be phased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34786 Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 The bit on the news when Corbyn accosted the press from his tatty garden btw. Pure In the Thick of It Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Honestly, I don't even know why Corbyn is continuing with his. He must be sick to the back teeth of the media by now and yet he still hangs on. Why? I mean, even though I agree with his policies I can see he and Labour now have no chance of getting into government any time soon, whatever happens. I read that he was very close to quitting when the mass resignations happened, and was talked into staying. I bet he's regretting it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4679 Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 He's a hostage by all accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Proper bell-end thing to have done. Mind compared to voting in favour of an illegal war or for austerity or fiddling your expenses or even claiming to the very maximum of your entitlement to maximise the profit from your multiple homes.....I'll keep sitting on the floor when there's an empty seat to score a political point in context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 It's also striking that he's been hammered for the lack of opposition he provides. He's constantly speechifying around the country and no media outlet gives a moments coverage to the content. All that gets covered is the horse race for leadership. So he creates a story that generates a lot of headlines on how labor policy would differ from tory... and he gets hammered for performing a publicity stunt. Just needs slicker PR and his hedges trimmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5164 Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 I think that's the fundamental disconnect though - Corbyn doesn't trust the media so just doesn't 'bother' with them. Instead, he mobilises support from the grassroots up. This shouldn't phase the media unless they genuinely put a lot of stock in their ability to control the way we think and vote - which I obviously believe they do, but some disagree. If Corbyn bypasses them and goes straight to us, they've lost control though. I don't think any amount of PR is going to save him on the media front now though, the only option is to keep ploughing ahead until they either manage to make him irrelevant or he eventually proves that he has more influence over people than they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34786 Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 I know what you mean like, it's roughly on a par with George Osbourne parking in a disabled spot and somewhere below sticking your cock in a pig's head. The reason the leadership issue is such big news though is because most of the PLP don't support their leader and he's continuing on regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15371 Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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