Politics

[Alex 34786]

Aye.

[Gemmill 44265]

Farage resigns. Again.

[PaddockLad 17067]

She's got a point, however, as mentioned last week there's a bigger picture...

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-chilcot-report-latest-news-alex-salmond-a7116926.html

 

Don't know if he'll walk off into the sunset by Friday, I think I would if I was him though...

[ChezGiven 0]

So is this logic about right?

 

• The left lost legitimacy with the core working class voters for being too elitist and ignoring concerns about immigration.
• Immigration was a genuine concern but exacerbated (or even driven by) post-crisis economic policies which were forcing down real wages, reducing demand and increasing unemployment
• UKIP was able to take large amounts of votes from traditional labour voters in traditional working class communities as they spoke to this constitution of voters more than centrist Labour

OK - nothing too controversial there.

• Corbyn's election by the membership was a reaction of the core members to the 'failures of the past' but also importantly to the inability of centrist Labour to speak to this constituency via anti-austerity / socialist policies.
• The vote for Corbyn and the belief that he could possibly win an election was in no-ones mind at all about taking centrist voters from the tories. Of the 5 million voters lost, the ones lost to the new UKIP / fuck you constituency were the voters Corbyn was meant to win back.
• The Referendum demonstrated that the lost working class vote is still lost, no matter what Len Mcluskey says about council elections, the Labour vote in this area continues to be lost despite a year of a socialist leader. Corbyn does not win back what Labour lost in the working classes, he wins back the far left who were disenfranchised by New Labour. A very different constituency.

So the second part is where you may disagree but if you do then i think Corbyn has to go. A hard left message is not getting through to the lost voters.

 

Overall, i am happy that Corbyn has led the party as i think he has shifted the debate to the left, instilled an anti-austerity message and made the party more reflective of its socialist roots. I never expected him to fight the next election and i didnt expect him to win it if he did. My hope was that he would shift the debate and bring the party back closer to its identity. I think he has done that. So i dont see the need for him to stay on.

 

The country will be won from the middle, with the economy essentially a centrist, regulated capitalist model, the only reforms that will benefit the working classes are those that start from the centre and work leftwards at the margin. Incremental change is the best we can hope for unless we start a revolution. That process works only from the middle and that's where the party needs to go. With a re-affirmed socialist heart.

[Alex 34786]

That would seem to be about the size of it, Chez. The obvious question though is - who should Corbyn be replaced with?

[NJS 4365]

I agree with a lot of that but I'm finding it hard to reconcile some of the criticism of the referendum campaign with the figure showing 62% of labour voters voted remain - a figure only bettered (just) by the snp and a lot higher than the tory figure. Of course you can argue it should have been higher if you like but it's a sad fact that a lot of working class!/labour voters in the north do have a sun reading, flag waving tendency which could be exploited in this context. Of course it may be that people like that will never accept Corbyn which is why as I've said I'd be happy enough if only a good candidate emerges.

[Sonatine 11304]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/that-andrea-leadsom-sounds-like-a-right-fking-nightmare-says-britain-20160703110101

[Renton 21231]

I agree with a lot of that but I'm finding it hard to reconcile some of the criticism of the referendum campaign with the figure showing 62% of labour voters voted remain - a figure only bettered (just) by the snp and a lot higher than the tory figure. Of course you can argue it should have been higher if you like but it's a sad fact that a lot of working class!/labour voters in the north do have a sun reading, flag waving tendency which could be exploited in this context. Of course it may be that people like that will never accept Corbyn which is why as I've said I'd be happy enough if only a good candidate emerges.

I think the criticism stems directly from his performance which was half arsed at best. If he'd performed better and still lost that'd be a different matter. Also, what you said is a bit misleading. 62% of labour voters may have been remain, but this certainly wasn't true of traditionally labour voting areas. Since he has miserably failed to win over UKip voters. That 62% is from a depressingly low base.

 

And last week we still have him making the most infantile comparison of the state of Israel being akin to IS. I've read the quote directly and the comparison is obvious, he's not been misquoted. I honestly don't know how you can support him.

[Park Life 71]

People might have missed it but the revolution has already begun. Blairite Labours' idea that the Party could move beyond 'notions of class' lies in tatters.

 

The urgency to get rid of Corby is due to the Chilcott report. They're trying to get him out before he slams Blair from the dispatch box. The Blairites and Blair have gone into full countermeasures hence why we've seen the pallid face of Darth Blair haunting TV studios across the land. He's read the report remember and he is worried.

 

He must be had up for his crimes against the realm and the people. His crimes against humanity and the nearly million and counting dead in Iraq.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Park Life

[Meenzer 15371]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/02/outrage-as-war-crimes-prosecutors-say-tony-blair-will-not-be-inv/

[Park Life 71]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tony-blair-could-be-sued-by-families-of-iraq-war-dead-over-chilcot-report-findings-a7056131.html

[Christmas Tree 4679]

So is this logic about right?

 

• The left lost legitimacy with the core working class voters for being too elitist and ignoring concerns about immigration.
• Immigration was a genuine concern but exacerbated (or even driven by) post-crisis economic policies which were forcing down real wages, reducing demand and increasing unemployment
• UKIP was able to take large amounts of votes from traditional labour voters in traditional working class communities as they spoke to this constitution of voters more than centrist Labour

OK - nothing too controversial there.

• Corbyn's election by the membership was a reaction of the core members to the 'failures of the past' but also importantly to the inability of centrist Labour to speak to this constituency via anti-austerity / socialist policies.
• The vote for Corbyn and the belief that he could possibly win an election was in no-ones mind at all about taking centrist voters from the tories. Of the 5 million voters lost, the ones lost to the new UKIP / fuck you constituency were the voters Corbyn was meant to win back.
• The Referendum demonstrated that the lost working class vote is still lost, no matter what Len Mcluskey says about council elections, the Labour vote in this area continues to be lost despite a year of a socialist leader. Corbyn does not win back what Labour lost in the working classes, he wins back the far left who were disenfranchised by New Labour. A very different constituency.

So the second part is where you may disagree but if you do then i think Corbyn has to go. A hard left message is not getting through to the lost voters.

 

Overall, i am happy that Corbyn has led the party as i think he has shifted the debate to the left, instilled an anti-austerity message and made the party more reflective of its socialist roots. I never expected him to fight the next election and i didnt expect him to win it if he did. My hope was that he would shift the debate and bring the party back closer to its identity. I think he has done that. So i dont see the need for him to stay on.

 

The country will be won from the middle, with the economy essentially a centrist, regulated capitalist model, the only reforms that will benefit the working classes are those that start from the centre and work leftwards at the margin. Incremental change is the best we can hope for unless we start a revolution. That process works only from the middle and that's where the party needs to go. With a re-affirmed socialist heart.

Corbyn may have shifted the debate left, but only with the niche sector of the voters that he is talking too. Your average traditional pit village labour supporter couldn't give too fucks about Corbyn prattling on about Jews / Israel / Isis.

 

The bottom line is he seemed fresh during the leadership election, but has not had the charisma, personality, brain power or leadership skills to transport those views to an electorate as a whole.

 

Add to all this that the Labour Party membership has now been hijacked by these angry under 30 lefties.

 

With UKIP having won the referendum and Farage stepping down, I think they will now ramp up their party structure and savage Labour at the next election. Particularly if the Tories don't deliver a full Brexit.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Christmas Tree

[ChezGiven 0]

I agree with a lot of that but I'm finding it hard to reconcile some of the criticism of the referendum campaign with the figure showing 62% of labour voters voted remain - a figure only bettered (just) by the snp and a lot higher than the tory figure. Of course you can argue it should have been higher if you like but it's a sad fact that a lot of working class!/labour voters in the north do have a sun reading, flag waving tendency which could be exploited in this context. Of course it may be that people like that will never accept Corbyn which is why as I've said I'd be happy enough if only a good candidate emerges.

 

Glad you asked that as it brings up 2 issues (and you are giving Unite's argument yesterday). Firstly and least importantly, the polls are wrong. We know that now. So give that measure at least a 5 to 10% error margin.

 

Secondly, 62% of which voters? The people who voted Labour at the last election? You see the problem there, this doesnt include the lost votes. The constituency of voters at the heart of everything.

[Alex 34786]

There seems to be, anecdotally at least, a much wider section of people in places like the north east who voted to leave than just "Labour's traditional working class" vote, which I'm not even sure exists any more anyway.

[ChezGiven 0]

Labour's core vote now = online fannies who got a second class degree and a half arsed job.

[ChezGiven 0]

People might have missed it but the revolution has already begun. Blairite Labours' idea that the Party could move beyond 'notions of class' lies in tatters.

 

The urgency to get rid of Corby is due to the Chilcott report. They're trying to get him out before he slams Blair from the dispatch box. The Blairites and Blair have gone into full countermeasures hence why we've seen the pallid face of Darth Blair haunting TV studios across the land. He's read the report remember and he is worried.

 

He must be had up for his crimes against the realm and the people. His crimes against humanity and the nearly million and counting dead in Iraq.

 

[NJS 4365]

 

Glad you asked that as it brings up 2 issues (and you are giving Unite's argument yesterday). Firstly and least importantly, the polls are wrong. We know that now. So give that measure at least a 5 to 10% error margin.

 

Secondly, 62% of which voters? The people who voted Labour at the last election? You see the problem there, this doesnt include the lost votes. The constituency of voters at the heart of everything.

The figures do suggest a problem given the results but of course those results would probably include tories who are insignificant in GEs - though I get your point about the lost vote.

[NJS 4365]

 

 

And last week we still have him making the most infantile comparison of the state of Israel being akin to IS. I've read the quote directly and the comparison is obvious, he's not been misquoted. I honestly don't know how you can support him.

It was a point about associating people with actions and on that basis it was valid especially in the anti-Semitism context. I don't equate the state of Israel with terrorism but they do kill shed loads of people with impunity.

[Christmas Tree 4679]

It was a point about associating people with actions and on that basis it was valid especially in the anti-Semitism context. I don't equate the state of Israel with terrorism but they do kill shed loads of people with impunity.

But he should be out there thumping out a speech across all the media about Labours plans post Brexit. I don't think I've heard a peep.

[Alex 34786]

Bit harsh when the government doesn't have one

[Dickie 0]

Could the fact that Corbyn hasn't won back the 5 million lost vote be attributed to the fact that he doesn't have the support of the media (to put it mildly) or even his own treacherous MPs, rather than his hard-left message?

[Alex 34786]

Could the fact that Corbyn hasn't won back the 5 million lost vote be attributed to the fact that he doesn't have the support of the media (to put it mildly) or even his own treacherous MPs, rather than his hard-left message?

There's definitely something to that.

Btw, I take everyone has now read Rachel Johnson's appalling defence of her brother / attack on the Goves. Sums up so much of what is wrong with so many political commentators in this country and how far up politicians' arses they are.

[Gemmill 44265]

I haven't read it. Link me up, bitchtits.

 

Btw, Angela Eagle looks like the result of an unholy Union between Boris Johnson and Brienne of Tarth. People are not gonna vote for that. Given the choice, I'd rather shag Theresa May and that is a damning indictment.

[Gemmill 44265]

What I've just said sums up what's wrong with politics in this country btw. Broken Britain.

[ewerk 30221]

Could the fact that Corbyn hasn't won back the 5 million lost vote be attributed to the fact that he doesn't have the support of the media (to put it mildly) or even his own treacherous MPs, rather than his hard-left message?

 

It's chicken and egg stuff, is he shit because he has no support from the media/PLP or does he have no support from the media/PLP because he's shit?