Politics

[Renton 21621]

It was called 'Made in Britain'. Not on iPlayer any more though.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Renton

[ChezGiven 0]

It was absolutely class that programme.

[Gemmill 44864]

There's a book on it. Available on Amazon.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

It was called 'Made in Britain'. Not on iPlayer any more though.

 

Aye, I've had a search and its gone. Having read about the program I kind of get the point he is trying to make, while not agreeing with it. I guess I fit in with this critique of the program in the Independent.

 

Shame, I would have liked to watched it.

 

Here's an old trick that never loses its fascination. Look around you.

 

Think about the things you own or use. How many are British? The Honda Civic in the drive? Made in Swindon, as it happens. The Apple iPhone in your pocket? Made in China, designed in California, but the chips made in China are under licence from ARM Holdings of Cambridgeshire. Your tea-time treat of a Cadbury chocolate bar? Made in Bournville, Birmingham, but by the Illinois-based transnational Kraft, which recently took over Cadbury.

 

Years ago, as Evan Davis argues, things were simpler. If you bought one of the first Honda Civics imported into the UK in 1972, you could be fairly sure that it was 100 per cent Japanese. Your (fixed-line) phone would have been assembled at a Post Office factory in South Wales, from British components. Cadbury Schweppes was a proudly British firm that aspired to world leadership. "Off-shoring" was unthinkable.

 

Globalisation has changed all that, and the rise of China in particular made us more nervous about our future. Davis tries hard to offer reassurance about the sometimes bewildering pace of change. For Britain has won as well as lost, as the success of McLaren racing cars, Brompton bicycles, BAE Systems, ARM and Inmarsat (tops for satellite-phone technology) all demonstrate.

 

Davis's argument is that Britain has lots of creative, clever people educated at excellent universities, and they are better off applying themselves to the supply of the high-value goods and services that the world wants, and leaving the T-shirts and tellies to places where wage costs can never be beaten. If the Chinese eventually catch up in hi-tech then we just migrate elsewhere, as we always have. And the Chinese may well, one day, challenge us in aerospace, pharmaceuticals, chip design and £1m supercars.

 

In one of those nuggets that Davis is good at chucking in – he has a chatty, broadcaster's style of writing – he tells us that in 1983 the average Chinese citizen had a standard of living equivalent to the average Briton at the start of the 17th century. In the decades since, they have made the same progress that took us 200 years. It is not that much of a stretch, then, to imagine them making a jet engine to rival Rolls-Royce's product.

 

Yet we need not fear that. Davis rightly points out the fallacy of extrapolation – that if the Chinese economy is growing at 10 per cent a year now, it will do so for ever. He demonstrates how every economy has to adapt, and how you can lose manufacturing jobs while making higher-value things and growing more prosperous in the process.

 

But I wonder. For me, it is still perfectly rational to foresee a world turned upside down in, say, 2100, where the relative living standards of the West and today's emerging economic superpowers – China, India and Brazil – are reversed. Despite enjoying Davis's lively, upbeat account of the way we make our living, I'm not at all reassured about that.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

I used to love Sir John Harvey Jones as the Trouble Shooter as well.

[The Fish 10857]

 

One is relating to the decline of UK manufacturing and how this decline was papered over by various boom and busts and an ever increasing over reliance on credit. No ammount of R&D or internet frontiers are going to employ the masses in Burnley or Bognor.

 

Just to pick up on this bit. We have no idea the jobs that will be created for new industries. Who knew that an area famed for ship-building and coal mining would now be famous for call centres?

[The Fish 10857]

There's a book on it. Available on Amazon.

[Happy Face 29]

I was talking at the overall decline since the end of mass manufacturing and how imo the inevitable outcome of it was only ever delayed.

 

How does your view of a decline tally with figure 7 here...

 

http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/international-trade-investment-and-development/docs/u/11-720-uk-trade-performance

 

It shows that exports are up for manufacturing at every level of technology, doubled over the last 20 years.

 

?

 

Figure 11 shows the exporting of services is up 4 times over 14 years too. In what way is that a decline?

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Just to pick up on this bit. We have no idea the jobs that will be created for new industries. Who knew that an area famed for ship-building and coal mining would now be famous for call centres?

 

What we know is rich men / financiers back new inventions. They then get it manufactured as cheaply as possible so they remain rich.

 

Doesnt make any difference whether its a TV, a laptop or the latest Iphone. Its all about making money.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

How does your view of a decline tally with figure 7 here...

 

http://www.bis.gov.u...ade-performance

 

It shows that exports are up for manufacturing at every level of technology, doubled over the last 20 years.

 

?

 

Figure 11 shows the exporting of services is up 4 times over 14 years too. In what way is that a decline?

 

Jeez really?

 

Take coal mining as one example. Used to employ thousands and was consumed within the country. Same with TV's, clothing and most household products that wont show up in some export graph.

[The Fish 10857]

What we know is rich men / financiers back new inventions. They then get it manufactured as cheaply as possible so they remain rich.

 

Doesnt make any difference whether its a TV, a laptop or the latest Iphone. Its all about making money.

You've misunderstood. If you'd said to a miner or a welder that one of the dominant job-providing industry of Newcastle would be sitting at a computer screen answering phonecalls, he'd not have believed you.

 

We don't know what industry may emerge, there may be a demand for remote PAs and Burnley/Bognor have the right mix to provide that. I'm not talking about manufacturing, I'm talking about service and for the same reason that the North East still has a decent number of call centres despite the emigration of them to India, we may well see a service industry blossom in that area.

[Happy Face 29]

Jeez really?

 

Take coal mining as one example. Used to employ thousands and was consumed within the country. Same with TV's, clothing and most household products that wont show up in some export graph.

 

Well, no, single examples won't show up in an individual graph, but that's the point of a bigger picture.

 

Production of horse shoes is probably way down on a century ago, we don't lament the decline of that industry among blacksmiths when we have new combustion engines to manufacture.

 

So overall manufacturing is up at every level, as are service industries. That's not a decline.

[Happy Face 29]

...and if it's all the non-export industries that are declining...why is GDP up 150% over 2 decades?

 

 

Can you show me anything that indicates a declinining economy over the last few decades?

 

Genuinely interested.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Well, no, single examples won't show up in an individual graph, but that's the point of a bigger picture.

 

Production of horse shoes is probably way down on a century ago, we don't lament the decline of that industry among blacksmiths when we have new combustion engines to manufacture.

 

So overall manufacturing is up at every level, as are service industries. That's not a decline.

 

No its not and you are missing the point.

 

You are looking at a graph of exports. I am talking about the fact that we used to make and consume the very things we now import.

[Happy Face 29]

No its not and you are missing the point.

 

You are looking at a graph of exports. I am talking about the fact that we used to make and consume the very things we now import.

 

See my previous post.

 

It doesn't matter if we consume what we produce or if we trade consumables with other nations...as long as we produce and consume. Every graph I look at of the last few years suggests growth rather than decline. Interested where you got the impression of a declining economy....other than gut feeling cos it's harder to get a fare on Ocean Road on Thursday night

[Christmas Tree 4725]

...and if it's all the non-export industries that are declining...why is GDP up 150% over 2 decades?

 

 

Can you show me anything that indicates a declinining economy over the last few decades?

 

Genuinely interested.

 

I 'll say again.

 

We had a manufacturing base that was undercut and went abroad. The impact of that loss was hidden becomes of years of boom and bust, an ever growing welfare state and a reliance on debt.

 

Now that the debt bubble has burst and the welfare state is being reeled we are left with a fig leaf that isnt quite big enough.

 

edit: Its quite shocking that some of you dont grasp this.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Christmas Tree

[Meenzer 15525]

Not that it's central to the discussion, but I had the occasion to visit a few local business sites on Monday and was dead impressed. The Siemens renewables training and control centre is obviously a big deal, but I think I was most impressed by http://smd.co.uk/ and their funky machines for, erm, cable-laying and the like.

 

(You can tell I've worked an office job all my professional life.)

[Happy Face 29]

I 'll say again.

 

We had a manufacturing base that was undercut and went abroad. The impact of that loss was hidden becomes of years of boom and bust, an ever growing welfare state and a reliance on debt.

 

Now that the debt bubble has burst and the welfare state is being reeled we are left with a fig leaf that isnt quite big enough.

 

edit: Its quite shocking that some of you dont grasp this.

 

You're waffling. I'm looking for facts. Back it up with numbers. They should be available if you're right. If they aren't then it's probably best to question your ideas.

[NJS 4379]

 

I 'll say again.

 

We had a manufacturing base that was undercut and went abroad. The impact of that loss was hidden becomes of years of boom and bust, an ever growing welfare state and a reliance on debt.

 

Now that the debt bubble has burst and the welfare state is being reeled we are left with a fig leaf that isnt quite big enough.

 

edit: Its quite shocking that some of you dont grasp this.

 

If you can't prove that and HF has demonstrated the opposite with facts then you've just become LM.

[Gemmill 44864]

"It's quite shocking that nobody will accept my bullshit."

[Happy Face 29]

One final graph for you CT as i leave work in 10 minutes....

 

Link

 

The average Joe is bound to feel like the country is doing worse, because despite all the growth around them, the inflation, average house prices going through the roof, petrol etc. over the last 14 years the median wage has barely moved. Effectively the vast majority are a lot worse off. It's the only thing not to have grown with the economy....with dergulation, deunionisation, increased low skilled immigration etc. it only gets worse, that's what a government need to rectify.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

You're waffling. I'm looking for facts. Back it up with numbers. They should be available if you're right. If they aren't then it's probably best to question your ideas.

 

If you need numbers to understand this very simple historical point I dont really know what to say.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

If you can't prove that and HF has demonstrated the opposite with facts then you've just become LM.

 

I need to prove that coal mining, ship building, electronics, clothing industries have gone abroad. If thats the case then you have just become Wolfy.

 

HF hasnt demonstrated the opposite. None of the above show up in his graphs because they've gone!!!!!

 

Its like discounting the existence of Dinosaurs because they havent shown up in any recent countryside surveys.

[Renton 21621]

They've been replaced CT.

[CleeToonFan 1]

Aye they've become obsolete and to be fair we're world leaders in a lot of future technology. Even things like video games which are now bigger than books/films etc have a lot of British manufacturers. Give me aeronautics, cars, defence and research over coal mining and shipbuilding