US election 2016

[Rayvin 5220]

Fair enough, you win. The system is as it seems to be.

[Park Life 71]

All these 'color' revolutions are NGO organized and CIA backed. ALL of them. ALL. It's why Putin got them to register, it's why India have shut some of them down it's why there are 200 NGO's in Iran. NGO's a lot of them are soft power projection designed to go into a country and meddle with it.

Billionaires like Soros use them to circumnavigate the political process to overwhelm the political architecture.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Park Life

[Rayvin 5220]

All these 'color' revolutions are NGO organized and CIA backed. ALL of them. ALL.

 

Unless you can get the MSM providing the evidence, I don't think you're going to be able to persuade anyone. A ridiculous position to find ourselves in, but certainly the reality.

 

Thanks for the vids though, I'll give them a look.

[Park Life 71]

Unless you can get the MSM providing the evidence, I don't think you're going to be able to persuade anyone. A ridiculous position to find ourselves in, but certainly the reality.

 

Thanks for the vids though, I'll give them a look.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-institutions_government/colour_revolutions_3196.jsp

 

http://themillenniumreport.com/2015/05/the-cia-ngos-and-color-revolutions/

 

 

http://m.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/03/06/kerry-re-writes-history-of-us-support-for-color-revolutions.html

[Renton 21620]

Fair enough, you win. The system is as it seems to be.

That's just a variant of the logical fallacy J69 used. What's wrong with asking for evidence?

 

Oh, I forgot, we live in a post factual world where people just mix and match anything from the Internet to match their prejudices.

[Renton 21620]

Unless you can get the MSM providing the evidence, I don't think you're going to be able to persuade anyone. A ridiculous position to find ourselves in, but certainly the reality.

 

Thanks for the vids though, I'll give them a look.

No. I want to see primary evidence.

[Rayvin 5220]

That's just a variant of the logical fallacy J69 used. What's wrong with asking for evidence?

 

Oh, I forgot, we live in a post factual world where people just mix and match anything from the Internet to match their prejudices.

 

It wasn't an argument. I can't refute what you're saying, largely because I can't be bothered, but also because I thought this through to conclusion. Based on the debates we have on here, myself, Parky or HF would provide links from sources that come from non-MSM outlets which would support what he's saying, and you would claim that these sources aren't credible. As the MSM are frequently part of the problem, as that Pilger article sets out, it is of course very unlikely that we would find information within the 'established' sources that would support our viewpoints. That would be an attack by the MSM on itself, in this case.

 

Occasionally we provide a source from the MSM but these seem to be ignored in my view. So the reality is, there is no way we can properly make this argument because you don't want to hear it. You'd probably say the same about me, and you might well be right, although I feel as though I've demonstrated a willingness in the past to consider different perspectives and to take them on board. All I would say to that, is that pre-Brexit, pre Corbyn, I was firmly in your camp. The developments that happened in the last couple of years caused me to have to re-evaluate how I looked at everything, as my 'logical conclusions' weren't making sense in the landscape we were living within. I'm surprised that yours still are.

 

Although you're right about the post-factual nature of the world. The Economist had an article on this a while ago, and it does very much seem that we can claim anything is true these days, if enough people are saying it. In light of that, I read as broad a range of newspapers as possible (Guardian, Telegraph, Mail, BBC, Economist) in order to inform my views. I also take into consideration what you guys say on here, and have certainly shifted my position based on some of the arguments made. I'm not prepared to accept any source as gospel though, and also not prepared to think within 'safe' frameworks anymore.

 

It doesn't actually matter what I think, or you think, anyway. I'll know if I was right or not within the next 15-20 years, depending on the direction that politics moves in. If I'm wrong, that's a good thing. If I'm still posting on here, I'll hold my hands up. And will probably apologise

[Renton 21620]

A pretty nihilistic viewpoint. Pillinger made a very serious accusation and as far as I can see there is no evidence to support it. I need to go out now but am willing to discuss what constitutes credible evidence later if you like, and the possibility the media is part of a conspiracy to suppress the truth. I wonder why you even bother with those papers if you think they are lying to you tbh.

 

Also, I apologise but I do need to spoonfed these things as I don't have time to trawl through links for context and veracity.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Renton

[Park Life 71]

Click on it.

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by Park Life

[Renton 21620]

What about the bbc? State controlled propaganda?

[Renton 21620]

And the Whitley Bay news Guardian?

[Happy Face 29]

The Saudi foreign minister, Adel al-Jubeir, said....

 

“We have British officials and American officials and officials from other countries in our command and control centre. They know what the target list is and they have a sense of what it is that we are doing and what we are not doing,” he told journalists in London after meeting British ministers and US secretary of state, John Kerry.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/15/british-us-military-in-command-room-saudi-strikes-yemen?CMP=share_btn_tw

[Happy Face 29]

As the New York Times editorial page put it in August: “The United States is complicit in this carnage,” while The Guardian editorialized that “Britain bears much responsibility for this suffering.”

[Dr Gloom 21915]

It's all about the oil.

[Happy Face 29]

the British blocked EU inquiries into whether war crimes were being committed in Yemen, while key MPs have blocked reports proving that U.K. weapons were being used in the commission of war crimes and the deliberate targeting of civilians.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/24/yemen-britain-human-rights-inquiry

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/07/mps-poised-to-call-for-suspension-of-uk-arms-sales-to-saudi-arabia

[Dr Gloom 21915]

There's little doubt we've assisted the Saudis with their military capabilities over the years. Disgraceful when you look at that regime, which is among the most barbaric in the world. Makes a mockery of the notion that the neocons wanted to help spread democracy in the Middle East. They're just lucky we haven't bombed them like all the other countries the west has armed then attacked over the years. Perhaps we finally will when the oil runs out. These were the cunts who flew the planes into the twin towers after all.

[Park Life 71]

There's little doubt we've assisted the Saudis with their military capabilities over the years. Disgraceful when you look at that regime, which is among the most barbaric in the world. Makes a mockery of the notion that the neocons wanted to help spread democracy in the Middle East. They're just lucky we haven't bombed them like all the other countries the west has armed then attacked over the years. Perhaps we finally will when the oil runs out. These were the cunts who flew the planes into the twin towers after all.

Top post Gloom.

[Renton 21620]

The Saudi foreign minister, Adel al-Jubeir, said....

 

“We have British officials and American officials and officials from other countries in our command and control centre. They know what the target list is and they have a sense of what it is that we are doing and what we are not doing,” he told journalists in London after meeting British ministers and US secretary of state, John Kerry.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/15/british-us-military-in-command-room-saudi-strikes-yemen?CMP=share_btn_tw

Thanks. That's genuinely appalling. I still think the article was unbalance (e.g. didn't even mention MH17) but this is news to me. It's one thing to sell arms to these barbarians but another to help them pull the trigger. As it's been reported in the Guardian, it does make me wonder why the BBC has bypassed it whilst still reporting the destruction in Yemen.

 

It's clear the west has allied itself to the Sunni's. Turns out they are even worse than the Russian backed Shiites. The key is clearly self interest.

[Park Life 71]

Thanks. That's genuinely appalling. I still think the article was unbalance (e.g. didn't even mention MH17) but this is news to me. It's one thing to sell arms to these barbarians but another to help them pull the trigger. As it's been reported in the Guardian, it does make me wonder why the BBC has bypassed it whilst still reporting the destruction in Yemen.

 

It's clear the west has allied itself to the Sunni's. Turns out they are even worse than the Russian backed Shiites. The key is clearly self interest.

Top post Renty.

[Renton 21620]

I reckon there is probably one thing we are all agreed on is that the Saudi wahabist regime is the most vile in the world and the root cause of a lot of its problems.

 

Some time back in my old job I was invited to do some work there for one of the many Saudi Princes. My boss, who was and still is a very intelligent decent man, was so obsequious to him I cringed. It was all about the money in reality, a contract with them was worth far more than one with the NHS because they seemingly had money to burn (we're talking medical software btw).

 

Anyway, I was quite outspoken in meetings that I wanted nothing to do with them. Probably didn't help my promotion prospects.

 

I'm still with the NHS and glad to say he now does not for profit work in Africa. And I'm still ashamed we have anything to do with this nation.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Renton

[ewerk 30602]

"Real change begins with immediately repealing and replacing Obamacare,"

 

Most of his core fan base attending these rallies must surely be low income families? It's amazing how people will vote against their own interests.

[Renton 21620]

I imagine they'd literally rather die than have socialised medicine.

[ewerk 30602]

I think you're not far from the truth there.

[Rayvin 5220]

I've always been staggered by that. The ads they get with people who've lost limbs, who would evidently benefit from a more socialist healthcare system, talking about how they'd resist it with their last breath. Staggering stupidity, but I guess the extent to the cold war era propaganda goes very deep in the US psyche.

[Park Life 71]

There's no question that Trump will put an end to the perpetual war much loved by the Neo-Cons and by default Hilary. He's also said that the UK would be at the front of the queue reg a new trade deal. How believable a lot of the stuff he says however is the crux of the matter. We can't second guess him as I'm sure he doesn't understand that much about 'big policy'.