Rayvin 5572 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Even if that path to something else is a trail to 1930s Germany? Â Hillary's social policies are pretty progressive, in part influenced by the support Sanders received. The one concern I'd have with her is potentially a hawkish foreign policy and I don't genuinely believe she's stupid enough to try to start world war lll. Seriously, the status quo in this case is streets ahead of the alternative, which is potentially quite scary for the world. Â I've made my position clear on this. I'd prefer he was elected for a day for the two fingers moment, and that he was then removed from office somehow Given that this scenario would never happen, I'd prefer Clinton. Â But that doesn't change the fact that Clinton cannot address this problem by nature of what she represents. She's tainted by the establishment and the powers that be, and unless she's able to oversee an incredible shift in wealth between those who have and those who have not, she's going to address fuck all. My concern is that the longer this wealth gap continues, and the longer the centre believes it is the one true way and that nothing will ever cause it to reflect or change, the harder the eventual successful backlash will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) Basically Obama done a New Labour on Florida. Republicans might be locked out of Florida forever.  The foreign-born share of Florida’s population rose from 12.9% in 1990, to 16.7% in 2000, to 19.4% in 2013, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Florida was home to 3.8 million immigrants in 2013, which is nearly the total population of Los Angeles, California. 53.4% of immigrants (or 2 million people) in Florida were naturalized U.S. citizens in 2013 (up from 42.9% in 1990)—meaning that they are eligible to vote. Edited November 8, 2016 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 22405 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Exactly. Â The fact that there are as many Trump supporting Democrats as Hillary supporting Republicans suggests that a decent number of liberals can now see the problems in this system. Â Â Â It's all relative though, and most of us are going to be sufficiently insulated in our middle class bubbles that we just assume everyone else can see and is happy with how things are. But the reality is that the working class aren't looking back through time and comparing their situation to those who have gone before ffs. They're looking at us and comparing themselves to us. As they fucking should be. There is no simply solution though, you're right. Clinton is no solution at all, and Trump's only purpose would be to shake the career politicians to their core - beyond that he'd be useless too. You've got to look at historical context though, otherwise your doomed to make mistakes. In the UK, we are simply replaying the 1980s. Things in the NE were fucking dismal then, at least as bad under today's austerity. What happened? We swung to the right. Â Anyway, trying not to get side tracked here. Literally no good can come from Trump imo. You and Gemmill both suggest that somehow in the long term electing this lunatic may play out for the best. If you can show me any feasible mechanism how this might happen I'm all ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Source? Â I posted the article yesterday but it was just a Guardian article with a reporter who followed a Trump supporting Democrat around his neighbourhood canvassing opinion, so not something to read anything into beyond my point. I was basically just wanting to demonstrate that I'm not alone in my liberal position but dislike of the 'liberal' option. Â Also, it could quite conceivably mean zero on both sides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) You've got to look at historical context though, otherwise your doomed to make mistakes. In the UK, we are simply replaying the 1980s. Things in the NE were fucking dismal then, at least as bad under today's austerity. What happened? We swung to the right. Â Anyway, trying not to get side tracked here. Literally no good can come from Trump imo. You and Gemmill both suggest that somehow in the long term electing this lunatic may play out for the best. If you can show me any feasible mechanism how this might happen I'm all ears. Â I've set it out multiple times now and you disagree with it - which is totally fair enough. But I don't see the benefit in rehashing it. Besides, it doesn't really matter. Hillary will win and ultimately, that will be good for those of us who are doing ok. More people will slide out of our group over time, as is happening already, and so the number of disaffected will rise, but as long as there's more of us than there are of them, we should be ok. Â On the historical context bit - yeah fair enough. I can see the sense in that. Can the millions of people being left behind? Doesn't look like it. My points here aren't some kind of strategy for improving the world man, it's purely observation based. I think things will happen in the way I put across, I'm not saying that I would like these things to happen. Edited November 8, 2016 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15865 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Â Basically Obama done a New Labour on Florida. Republicans might be locked out of Florida forever. Â Except for when they win it today. Apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) Basically loads of Latin Americans who are getting crushed by Globalism and are in Florida because of Globalism are voting for more Globalism. Edited November 8, 2016 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Basically loads of Latin Americans who are getting crushed by Globalism and are in Florida because of Globalism are voting for more Globalism. Â It's ridiculous isn't it? You know, the blame for this has to be with identity politics. Divide everyone up by making them fit into random groupings based on shared physical traits and pit them against each other. I mean, Trump made this inevitable as well, since he's played identity politics from day one (white, male) but all this bullshit serves to do is to prevent the far more numerous people at the bottom of the social order from voting in their own interests. Not that there is an option for their own interests at this election, but there could have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Except for when they win it today. Apparently. It's very close. You have to marvel at Trump that he's come this far with no political training and huge disadvantages with reg to spend and an entrenched elite media against him..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 It's ridiculous isn't it? You know, the blame for this has to be with identity politics. Divide everyone up by making them fit into random groupings based on shared physical traits and pit them against each other. I mean, Trump made this inevitable as well, since he's played identity politics from day one (white, male) but all this bullshit serves to do is to prevent the far more numerous people at the bottom of the social order from voting in their own interests. Not that there is an option for their own interests at this election, but there could have been. Londonistan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22518 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) I've set it out multiple times now and you disagree with it - which is totally fair enough. But I don't see the benefit in rehashing it. Besides, it doesn't really matter. Hillary will win and ultimately, that will be good for those of us who are doing ok. More people will slide out of our group over time, as is happening already, and so the number of disaffected will rise, but as long as there's more of us than there are of them, we should be ok. Â On the historical context bit - yeah fair enough. I can see the sense in that. Can the millions of people being left behind? Doesn't look like it. My points here aren't some kind of strategy for improving the world man, it's purely observation based. I think things will happen in the way I put across, I'm not saying that I would like these things to happen. A Hillary victory would be much much better for America's poor than a Trump victory. impoverished people in the states voting for him are an exact replay of the Brexit turkeys voting for Christmas we saw here Edited November 8, 2016 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 22405 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 I've set it out multiple times now and you disagree with it - which is totally fair enough. But I don't see the benefit in rehashing it. Besides, it doesn't really matter. Hillary will win and ultimately, that will be good for those of us who are doing ok. More people will slide out of our group over time, as is happening already, and so the number of disaffected will rise, but as long as there's more of us than there are of them, we should be ok. Â On the historical context bit - yeah fair enough. I can see the sense in that. Can the millions of people being left behind? Doesn't look like it. My points here aren't some kind of strategy for improving the world man, it's purely observation based. I think things will happen in the way I put across, I'm not saying that I would like these things to happen. Okay, fair enough. Fwiw though I don't think things will go back to normal if Hillary wins this election. The fire has been stoked and I expect the US to become an increasingly divided, xenophobic, and violent country. Much like here post-Brexit. Am at Tue stage now I'm sick of watching the constant misery on the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 47074 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 It's very close. You have to marvel at Trump that he's come this far with no political training and huge disadvantages with reg to spend and an entrenched elite media against him.....You don't really have to marvel though, cos clearly the bloke could get up there and tell everyone in the crowd that "Your mom....... she has the best Vagina." and it wouldn't put them off voting for him. People aren't listening and that's all he's getting by on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Okay, fair enough. Fwiw though I don't think things will go back to normal if Hillary wins this election. The fire has been stoked and I expect the US to become an increasingly divided, xenophobic, and violent country. Much like here post-Brexit. Am at Tue stage now I'm sick of watching the constant misery on the news.  Well yes, me too. I struggle to think where it can lead us unless one group wins a decisive victory over the other.  I kind of wonder if we're seeing the twilight years of Western civilisation here, to be quite honest... certainly if there is a swing to the right, and it holds, that's a total disaster. The lunatics taking over the asylum, and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 You don't really have to marvel though, cos clearly the bloke could get up there and tell everyone in the crowd that "Your mom....... she has the best Vagina." and it wouldn't put them off voting for him. People aren't listening and that's all he's getting by on. Â Agree with this - it's not about the candidates this time, really. It's about the message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 You don't really have to marvel though, cos clearly the bloke could get up there and tell everyone in the crowd that "Your mom....... she has the best Vagina." and it wouldn't put them off voting for him. People aren't listening and that's all he's getting by on. I'm getting a Trump stained glass done mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016  :lol:  Biggest laughs/applause from his gig on Sunday  - "What we have to remember is, all the people that voted for Brexit weren't necessarily racists..... A lot of them were cunts" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22518 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 It's very close. You have to marvel at Trump that he's come this far with no political training and huge disadvantages with reg to spend and an entrenched elite media against him..... Like Fox News? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Fox News wasn't hugely pro-trump either, was it? Didn't he have some manner of spat with one of their anchors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 22518 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 They've given him a massive platform and some of their leading anchors like Sean Hannity have endorsed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 http://observer.com/2016/09/mainstream-media-defeat-trump-by-attacking-his-supporters/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5572 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) They've given him a massive platform and some of their leading anchors like Sean Hannity have endorsed him. Â Â Ok, I thought they were in the 'conflicted Republican' camp. Where Trump has done well is with the Alt-Right; so their (less mainstream) media is picking up the slack for him a bit. Edited November 8, 2016 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 Like Fox News? Â Think he meant in general. Â See this on the Tone of Trumps Coverage... Â Â Â 91% negative by the end. Â Clinton on the other hand managed to get more positive coverage than negative.. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 They've given him a massive platform and some of their leading anchors like Sean Hannity have endorsed him. Â Fox have been more negative about Trump... Â Â Than they have Clinton... Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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