US election 2016

[Rayvin 5220]

 

I'm not surprised at all by that based on what I'm reading. Unfortunately his message isn't going to get through to people who prefer their politics to be more straightforward.

[Happy Face 29]

I think it's the same "tear it all down" logic that leads to a Brexit victory.

 

But we seem to end up swimming through the shit and ploughing on rather than building anything worthwhile from the ruins

[Park Life 71]

Zizek spot on as usual.

[Rayvin 5220]

Aye, I've rewatched it now and he is so unbelievably right about this. Totally captures my viewpoint on it.

[Rayvin 5220]

I think it's the same "tear it all down" logic that leads to a Brexit victory.

 

But we seem to end up swimming through the shit and ploughing on rather than building anything worthwhile from the ruins

 

Not quite sure what you mean by this comment? You mean you think we'd do better working within the established frameworks?

[Alex 35079]

Not quite sure what you mean by this comment? You mean you think we'd do better working within the established frameworks?

What I think he means, and I was about to post something similar, is that there were similar things said about Brexit shaking up the establishment. It certainly hasn't lead to the sort of the things some were predicting. The morning after you had Peter Hitchens (who I'm not a fan of but I think assesses things rather well quite often) suggested it was almost inevitable the Tories and Labour would each split into two parties for example. That's not really any closer than it ever was (in the case of the former at least). Or, to put it another way, simply voting against the establashment isn't a good thing if the alternative is worse. That's where the parallels lie. I do take Zizek's point though. And he comes across like a lot of us in that it's a very poor choice to have to make.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Alex

[Rayvin 5220]

What I think he means, and I was about to post something similar, is that there were similar things said about Brexit shaking up the establishment. It certainly hasn't lead to the sort of the things some were predicting. The morning after you had Peter Hitchens (who I'm not a fan of but I often think assesses things rather well quite often) suggested it was almost inevitable the Tories and Labour would each split into two parties for example. That's not really any closer than it ever was (in the case of the former at least). Or, to put it another way, simply voting against the establashment isn't a good thing if the alternative is worse. That's where the parallels lie. I do take Zizek's point though. And he comes across like a lot of us in that it's a very poor choice to have to make.

 

Well put.

 

And yes, I can see the sense in that argument. The thing is, I don't think any single one action is going to bring about the change we need - but lots of them might. And I think my general concern is more that if we don't get the change with these relatively tame developments, we might see less tame developments in the future.

 

The Establishment has to lose this fight, IMO. It simply hasn't brought enough people with it to win. Maybe I'm wrong, but Brexit suggests otherwise.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Rayvin

[Alex 35079]

There's definitely a desire for change amongst a large amount of people. If you take the example of the US Presidential race you have someone like Clinton, who whilst not particularly likeable is basically a mainstream politician. She has just about everyone in the media on her side as well as just about anyone of note who has made an endorsement (not just politicians) and she's up against a pretty loathsome individual with virtually nothing but rhetoric and the world's most elaborate combover and it's still, even at this stage, a relatively close contest with the polls seemingly narrowing by the day. I don't think he'll win but the fact it's not quite cut and dry shows how disillusioned many people are.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Alex

[Rayvin 5220]

There's definitely a desire for change amongst a large amount of people. If you take the example of the US Presidential race you have someone like Clinton, who whilst not particularly likeable is basically a mainstream politician. She has just about everyone in the media on her side as well as just about anyone of note who has made an endorsement (not just politicians) and she's up against a pretty loathsome individual with virtually nothing but rhetoric and the world's most elaborate combover and it's still, even at this stage, a relatively close contest with the polls seemingly narrowing by the day. I don't think he'll win but the fact it's not quite cut and dry shows how disillusioned many people are.

 

I think it's quite possible that he could win you know... The Republican donors have clearly sensed blood as they're now throwing money at him hand over fist for the final few days of advertising. The problem with Trump, for me, is that he's a fantastic statement to the establishment on the day he gets elected, and thereafter is a problem and a liability with no solid policies and little ability or desire to actually make any difference. What we should have had is someone equally loathed by the establishment, but who could make a decent fist of it. Which is why I continue to stick with Corbyn, for better or worse. I've said a few times, I'd far rather we get change and reconstruction of the political climate by the left than the right.

 

It'll be the right in the end though, it always seems to be.

 

As for Hillary, she'd just keep things ticking over, but the status quo is, as you say, disenfranchising people. How long does that go on before someone radical comes in to fix it? Unless the establishment can somehow put the genie back in the bottle again. And maybe they can, they've probably done it in the past. Still though, with their usual mouthpieces in traditional media losing influence, I think they've been caught cold this time around.

 

If we get Trump, and Brexit, and it causes a rethink in how politics is set up, and in terms of who it is meant to serve, I reckon it'll save us a lot of grief further down the line.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Rayvin

[The Fish 10857]

I think it's quite possible that he could win you know... The Republican donors have clearly sensed blood as they're now throwing money at him hand over fist for the final few days of advertising. The problem with Trump, for me, is that he's a fantastic statement to the establishment on the day he gets elected, and thereafter is a problem and a liability with no solid policies and little ability or desire to actually make any difference. What we should have had is someone equally loathed by the establishment, but who could make a decent fist of it. Which is why I continue to stick with Corbyn, for better or worse. I've said a few times, I'd far rather we get change and reconstruction of the political climate by the left than the right.

 

It'll be the right in the end though, it always seems to be.

 

As for Hillary, she'd just keep things ticking over, but the status quo is, as you say, disenfranchising people. How long does that go on before someone radical comes in to fix it? Unless the establishment can somehow put the genie back in the bottle again. And maybe they can, they've probably done it in the past. Still though, with their usual mouthpieces in traditional media losing influence, I think they've been caught cold this time around.

 

If we get Trump, and Brexit, and it causes a rethink in how politics is set up, and in terms of who it is meant to serve, I reckon it'll save us a lot of grief further down the line.

 

I don't think Trump or Brexit will change the process or set up at all, it'll just shift the conversation to the right and legitimise the uglier factions on that side of the aisle. If Trump gets in, surely he'd only last 1 term, but the Democrats will then push a candidate that can appeal to the howl-at-the-moon rednecks. That candidate is hardly going to be a progressive.

[ewerk 30602]

Rayvin is fucking obsessed with bringing down the establishment.

[Park Life 71]

Rayvin is fucking obsessed with bringing down the establishment.

[Park Life 71]

Bremoaners can get back to their real worries now....What Kraft Ale to buy as a treat and pretend they are part of the hoitey toitey as they sip thier over priced crap. Did the posh bird at the pop up Vietnamese street food make eye contact?..Would it be wrong to buy that Fred Perry jumper at 150 quid?

Edited November 4, 2016 by Park Life

[Rayvin 5220]

Rayvin is fucking obsessed with bringing down the establishment.

 

I'll never get to run for politics based on my posts in here, will I? I'm not strictly anti-establishment though.

 

My concern is more that if we don't start seeing improvements in the lives of the people being left behind, and that we know that this number is increasing (thanks to the IFS and other sources), that logically, we're heading towards a place where the status quo cannot be perpetuated. That being the case, I would rather we had a negotiated climbdown rather than something drastic. The drastic action will be infinitely worse than Trump or Brexit.

 

I was quite happy with the establishment, relatively speaking - minus the wars and so on - until it delivered us Brexit. And while there are many factors at play there, it's pointless to stick our heads in the sand and say that 1) the people being left behind don't have a legitimate grievance and 2) refuse to acknowledge that there's a lot fucking more of them than we thought, and that this isn't unique to the UK.

 

I'm furious that we've been delivered to this point, that I was complicit in it, and that the intransigence of 'the elites' is delivering economic hardship for all of us, as they try to resist what is happening.

[Rayvin 5220]

I don't think Trump or Brexit will change the process or set up at all, it'll just shift the conversation to the right and legitimise the uglier factions on that side of the aisle. If Trump gets in, surely he'd only last 1 term, but the Democrats will then push a candidate that can appeal to the howl-at-the-moon rednecks. That candidate is hardly going to be a progressive.

 

Short term that's probably true - and certainly what we appear to be seeing over here post-Brexit, but I think there's a longer game at play here if I'm honest. I fully accept I could be wrong about all of this, and we'll just settle back down into the warm embrace of the Neoliberal centreground again. Doesn't seem likely, but hey, it's possible.

[Rayvin 5220]

I'll never get to run for politics based on my posts in here, will I? I'm not strictly anti-establishment though.

 

My concern is more that if we don't start seeing improvements in the lives of the people being left behind, and that we know that this number is increasing (thanks to the IFS and other sources), that logically, we're heading towards a place where the status quo cannot be perpetuated. That being the case, I would rather we had a negotiated climbdown rather than something drastic. The drastic action will be infinitely worse than Trump or Brexit.

 

I was quite happy with the establishment, relatively speaking - minus the wars and so on - until it delivered us Brexit. And while there are many factors at play there, it's pointless to stick our heads in the sand and say that 1) the people being left behind don't have a legitimate grievance and 2) refuse to acknowledge that there's a lot fucking more of them than we thought, and that this isn't unique to the UK.

 

I'm furious that we've been delivered to this point, that I was complicit in it, and that the intransigence of 'the elites' is delivering economic hardship for all of us, as they try to resist what is happening.

 

Not to commit the unholy sin of a treble post willingly, but just to add to this, the other thing that appalls me is that the 'establishment' have been quite prepared to throw everyone else under the bus on this front. Immigrants have become the focal point for the anger many people have at the failings of a system that is actually foisted on us by chasing profits and maximising wealth in the hands of those who already have it. Added in with all the divisive identity politics drivel that they give us as 'meaningful political change and progress' and serves only to distract from actual social progress, and I think it's fair to consider them to be at the root of many of society's problems.

 

Thus it's ok for me to talk about them

 

I'll reign it in a bit though. I've actually been trying to anyway but it's so hard to resist being pulled back

[The Fish 10857]

Short term that's probably true - and certainly what we appear to be seeing over here post-Brexit, but I think there's a longer game at play here if I'm honest. I fully accept I could be wrong about all of this, and we'll just settle back down into the warm embrace of the Neoliberal centreground again. Doesn't seem likely, but hey, it's possible.

 

Yeah I just can't imagine any of us being around when the longer game plays out.

[Rayvin 5220]

Yeah I just can't imagine any of us being around when the longer game plays out.

 

I agree that this is a possible. Then again, look at the rise of the right wing in Europe. Change does appear to be upon us.

[The Fish 10857]

I agree that this is a possible. Then again, look at the rise of the right wing in Europe. Change does appear to be upon us.

The slide to insanity seems a lot easier than the ascent to sense.

[Rayvin 5220]

The slide to insanity seems a lot easier than the ascent to sense.

 

Which is why it's so important for the establishment to agree to the negotiated climbdown rather than to resist. It can be done calmly and with one eye on a better tomorrow. Rather than with rage and frustration.

 

And to be clear, I'm not saying that they dismantle everything I'm saying they need to rewrite some of the rules so that the success of our civilisation is shared more equally.

[The Fish 10857]

Which is why it's so important for the establishment to agree to the negotiated climbdown rather than to resist. It can be done calmly and with one eye on a better tomorrow. Rather than with rage and frustration.

 

And to be clear, I'm not saying that they dismantle everything I'm saying they need to rewrite some of the rules so that the success of our civilisation is shared more equally.

 

 

Yeah, fuck all chance of that happening in our lifetime.

[Park Life 71]

Which is why it's so important for the establishment to agree to the negotiated climbdown rather than to resist. It can be done calmly and with one eye on a better tomorrow. Rather than with rage and frustration.

 

And to be clear, I'm not saying that they dismantle everything I'm saying they need to rewrite some of the rules so that the success of our civilisation is shared more equally.

Power only has one goal more power. Only miscalculations, financial catastrophes or acts of God from time to time puts a tree on the tracks. Ultimately there will be a revolution in America. The people are highly armed and vast swathes of the country have been left behind.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Park Life

[Rayvin 5220]

Power only has one goal more power. Only miscalculations, financial catastrophes or acts of God from time to time puts a tree on the tracks. Ultimately there will be a revolution in America. The people are highly armed and vast swathes of the country have been left behind.

 

You have a much less optimistic outlook than I do, but I can see your point.

[Rayvin 5220]

Yeah, fuck all chance of that happening in our lifetime.

 

Agreed - makes me wonder which other Brexit style horrors lie in wait though.

[Gemmill 44865]

Requiem for the American Dream on Netflix is a good watch in the days leading up to this election. Chomsky doing Chomsky.