Syria

[ewerk 30610]

The Chinese ain't going to do shit, they'd rather watch the rest of the world tear themselves to pieces then pick the bones.

 

And the Russian military isn't a match for NATO, they've been investing recently but most of their equipment is still decades out of date and their main foreign supplier, Ukraine, has cut them off.

[PaddockLad 17260]

Parky is loving this

Just seen John Simpson on the bbc news explaining all, am telling you its him! Came across as knowledgeable and authoritative as our Parky, just minus the apocolyptic paranoia and conspiracy theories

[Dr Gloom 21923]

 

Seriously either you don't understand the meaning of "root cause" or you are just being a moron.

 

The root cause for what is happening in the middle east is the american support for Israel.

 

Israel is a state which flaunts international law on a daily basis.

 

America suports Israel because Jewish votes can swing presidential elections.

 

Israel likes to blow up the palestinians and ghettoise them as well as expanding illegal settlements and blocking the recognition of the palestinian state.

 

America still supports Israel even though it flouts UN resolutions.

 

This radicalises young muslim men to attack america 9/11

 

America responds with the invasion of Afghanistan and iraq.

 

Many muslim people are lockerd up without trial and abused in prison.

 

The area is turned into an unstable hell hole.

 

America performs drone strikes, some of which miss and hit schools, hospitals, weddings etc.

 

Disaffected muslim youths are then ripe for radicalisation due to these acts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You seriously miss the point when saying radical islam is the root cause. Radicalisation is always a reaction to something.

So what do you blame for Boko Haram? Is that israel's fault as well?

 

Or maybe, @@Happy Face, a bunch of crazed Nigerian Islamists are enslaving girls because of US drone attacks in Afghanistan?

 

Or maybe it's just of fucked up take on another fucked up religion that's to blame.

 

Apologies for bringing this up again

[Rayvin 5223]

And so the cycle begins again. It's like a microcosm of what's happening in the Middle East in general, this thread.

[trophyshy 7083]

I blame humanity.

[Dr Gloom 21923]

And so the cycle begins again. It's like a microcosm of what's happening in the Middle East in general, this thread.

Sorry

 

I'd had a few drinks and a massive flaw in the apologists' argument suddenly struck me.

[toonotl 2979]

Which one?

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894]

So what do you blame for Boko Haram? Is that israel's fault as well?

 

Or maybe, @@Happy Face, a bunch of crazed Nigerian Islamists are enslaving girls because of US drone attacks in Afghanistan?

 

Or maybe it's just of fucked up take on another fucked up religion that's to blame.

 

Apologies for bringing this up again

 

 

It took you over 24 hours to come up with Boko Haram.

 

The group was formed and supported because the leader (who was an absolute nutter and would have been if religion didn't exist) was able to link political corruption to "western interference" and showed how the west was "waging war on islam" because of the invasion of Iraq.

 

You really have no depth of intelligence do you? If Islam is to blame then why is it just a very small minority of Muslims who are terrorists?

[The Fish 10857]

 

 

It took you over 24 hours to come up with Boko Haram.

 

The group was formed and supported because the leader (who was an absolute nutter and would have been if religion didn't exist) was able to link political corruption to "western interference" and showed how the west was "waging war on islam" because of the invasion of Iraq.

 

You really have no depth of intelligence do you? If Islam is to blame then why is it just a very small minority of Muslims who are terrorists?

 

Of the major religions, is Islam not the easiest to deliberately misinterpret? The emphasis on martyrdom and the 72 virgins that are to follow in Jannah?

[Dr Gloom 21923]

 

 

It took you over 24 hours to come up with Boko Haram.

 

The group was formed and supported because the leader (who was an absolute nutter and would have been if religion didn't exist) was able to link political corruption to "western interference" and showed how the west was "waging war on islam" because of the invasion of Iraq.

 

You really have no depth of intelligence do you? If Islam is to blame then why is it just a very small minority of Muslims who are terrorists?

 

[Howmanheyman 33206]

 

Of the major religions, is Islam not the easiest to deliberately misinterpret? The emphasis on martyrdom and the 72 virgins that are to follow in Jannah?

What's the fascination with virgins? Is it because they won't realise the jihadis are shit shags?

[Renton 21625]

I thought we had established, via Prince Charles and HF, global warming was to blame?

[The Fish 10857]

What's the fascination with virgins? Is it because they won't realise the jihadis are shit shags?

 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894]

 

Of the major religions, is Islam not the easiest to deliberately misinterpret? The emphasis on martyrdom and the 72 virgins that are to follow in Jannah?

 

 

It is incredibly difficult to translate, also has contradictions and major verses point to the writer believeibng in a flat earth.

 

It is like many religions daft. However it laso has many points about not killing women and children and does not demand all people convert to islam. Muhammed himself was quite happy to mix with non believers and the quran does specifically state that anyone visiting a different land must abide by their rules.

 

People want power, they have used many things to get this power and one of them is religion, that is what ISIS and Al Quaeda and indeed the IRA, UVF, Baader Meinhoff et al have all been about, power. The achieving of it and the use of it.

[Renton 21625]

I think it's you who need to read up more about the stated aims of IS here. If it was just about "power" then like the other groups you mentioned you could negotiate with them. But as their aim is the destruction of the West and triggering end times, this isn't really an option, is it? Buy no, nowt to do with religion......

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/russia-deploys-missile-cruiser-in-mediterranean-to-destroy-any-target-after-plane-shot-down-by-a6747721.html

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894]

I think it's you who need to read up more about the stated aims of IS here. If it was just about "power" then like the other groups you mentioned you could negotiate with them. But as their aim is the destruction of the West and triggering end times, this isn't really an option, is it? Buy no, nowt to do with religion......

 

From the BBC like.

 

"In June 2014, the group formally declared the establishment of a "caliphate" - a state governed in accordance with Islamic law, or Sharia, by God's deputy on Earth, or caliph.

It has demanded that Muslims across the world swear allegiance to its leader - Ibrahim Awad Ibrahim al-Badri al-Samarrai, better known as Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi - and migrate to territory under its control.

IS has also told other jihadist groups worldwide that they must accept its supreme authority. Many already have, among them several offshoots of the rival al-Qaeda network."

Sounds a lot like power to me.

It does mention being a tool of the end times as well but there are no direct quotes.

Renton I assume you are good at your job and passionate about what you do. However looking at conflict and the drivers of conflict you are about as deep as a wet pavement.

The middle east was fairly peaceful for hundreds of years barring the odd internicine conflict mainly on a small scale. However time and again the main cause of large scale conflict has always been interference from the west. This started with the crusades anmd then went quiet again for many hundreds of years until again the west stuck its oar in. After world war one Britain decided to carve up the land drawing arbitrary borders across ancient homelands making enemies neighbours and family foreigners. The introduction of the internal combustion engine further exacerbated the issue, the US were happy to pay for Saddam's war against Iran and then saw Saddam's invasion of Kuwait as a way of getting feet on the ground in the middle east (by the way kuwait was slant drilling under iraq). This was the pre cursor to Geoge Jr (halfaheed to his pals) getting all upset when Saudis flew planes into the twin towers (15 0f the 19 were Saudis) and using this as an excuse to invade Iraq.

People use religion and have always done so, in fact it was people who created religion just in case you didn't know. To blame a concept for the act of individuals takes away the responsibility of that individual for their own actions.

We all have free will, no one can make us do things we do not want to do, this is whay I object to people blaming religion for the actions of humans.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

 

you are about as deep as a wet pavement.

[Dr Gloom 21923]

I think it's you who need to read up more about the stated aims of IS here. If it was just about "power" then like the other groups you mentioned you could negotiate with them. But as their aim is the destruction of the West and triggering end times, this isn't really an option, is it? Buy no, nowt to do with religion......

 

Boko Haram is a sunni islamic fundamentalist sect and is influenced by the nutcase wahhabis.

 

their name, Boko Haram, is literally translated as "western education is forbidden". They've carried out mass abductions, kidnapped and enslaved close to 300 Nigerian school girls, killed 20,000 people and displaced over 2m from their homes in northern Nigeria.

 

All because of the western invasion of Iraq of course

[ChezGiven 0]

 

 

From the BBC like.

 

"In June 2014, the group formally declared the establishment of a "caliphate" - a state governed in accordance with Islamic law, or Sharia, by God's deputy on Earth, or caliph.

It has demanded that Muslims across the world swear allegiance to its leader - Ibrahim Awad Ibrahim al-Badri al-Samarrai, better known as Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi - and migrate to territory under its control.

IS has also told other jihadist groups worldwide that they must accept its supreme authority. Many already have, among them several offshoots of the rival al-Qaeda network."

Sounds a lot like power to me.

It does mention being a tool of the end times as well but there are no direct quotes.

Renton I assume you are good at your job and passionate about what you do. However looking at conflict and the drivers of conflict you are about as deep as a wet pavement.

The middle east was fairly peaceful for hundreds of years barring the odd internicine conflict mainly on a small scale. However time and again the main cause of large scale conflict has always been interference from the west. This started with the crusades anmd then went quiet again for many hundreds of years until again the west stuck its oar in. After world war one Britain decided to carve up the land drawing arbitrary borders across ancient homelands making enemies neighbours and family foreigners. The introduction of the internal combustion engine further exacerbated the issue, the US were happy to pay for Saddam's war against Iran and then saw Saddam's invasion of Kuwait as a way of getting feet on the ground in the middle east (by the way kuwait was slant drilling under iraq). This was the pre cursor to Geoge Jr (halfaheed to his pals) getting all upset when Saudis flew planes into the twin towers (15 0f the 19 were Saudis) and using this as an excuse to invade Iraq.

People use religion and have always done so, in fact it was people who created religion just in case you didn't know. To blame a concept for the act of individuals takes away the responsibility of that individual for their own actions.

We all have free will, no one can make us do things we do not want to do, this is whay I object to people blaming religion for the actions of humans.

 

 

Hang on. The crusades were causes by 3000 Christians massacred in Jerusalem by invading Turks. The crusades are generally accepted to be caused by muslim incursions into Christian lands and the resentment (and requests for help) this built up. You might want to read up on the Ottoman empire too, they were a bit feisty and managed to incur into most of southern europe uninvited.

 

The middle east was peaceful until the west intervened? I cant believe you added in some condescension with that post too, the cheek of it.

[Renton 21625]

 

 

From the BBC like.

 

"In June 2014, the group formally declared the establishment of a "caliphate" - a state governed in accordance with Islamic law, or Sharia, by God's deputy on Earth, or caliph.

It has demanded that Muslims across the world swear allegiance to its leader - Ibrahim Awad Ibrahim al-Badri al-Samarrai, better known as Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi - and migrate to territory under its control.

IS has also told other jihadist groups worldwide that they must accept its supreme authority. Many already have, among them several offshoots of the rival al-Qaeda network."

 

Sounds a lot like power to me.

 

It does mention being a tool of the end times as well but there are no direct quotes.

 

Renton I assume you are good at your job and passionate about what you do. However looking at conflict and the drivers of conflict you are about as deep as a wet pavement.

 

The middle east was fairly peaceful for hundreds of years barring the odd internicine conflict mainly on a small scale. However time and again the main cause of large scale conflict has always been interference from the west. This started with the crusades anmd then went quiet again for many hundreds of years until again the west stuck its oar in. After world war one Britain decided to carve up the land drawing arbitrary borders across ancient homelands making enemies neighbours and family foreigners. The introduction of the internal combustion engine further exacerbated the issue, the US were happy to pay for Saddam's war against Iran and then saw Saddam's invasion of Kuwait as a way of getting feet on the ground in the middle east (by the way kuwait was slant drilling under iraq). This was the pre cursor to Geoge Jr (halfaheed to his pals) getting all upset when Saudis flew planes into the twin towers (15 0f the 19 were Saudis) and using this as an excuse to invade Iraq.

 

People use religion and have always done so, in fact it was people who created religion just in case you didn't know. To blame a concept for the act of individuals takes away the responsibility of that individual for their own actions.

 

We all have free will, no one can make us do things we do not want to do, this is whay I object to people blaming religion for the actions of humans.

I honestly don't need a history lecture from you, I've read and listened to far more qualified people than you on this.

 

I think perhaps the issue I don't think you grasp is that in Islam, power and religion are synonymous. In the West we have secular democracies and religion is divorced from politics. This doesn't always work perfectly and there are several examples that contradict this, but in essence it's true.

 

Islamic theocracies are of course the exact opposite. Many of these states do not believe in man made law and instead prefer literal interpretation of the Koran to guide their societies. This is not a nuanced difference but an absolute obvious one. There's also been a trend in recent years even for the more liberal, secular Muslim countries to revert back to theocratic principles.

 

I believe to deny the significance of the Islamic religion in the recent wars in the Middle East and the terrorism that's been exported is idiotic. To conflate power and religion in the way you have, equally so. I wonder if there is by atrocity in the world that could happen that would change your mind, but considering the dozens of Muslim martyrs that have already killed themselves in the name of their religion (rather than, for instance, a nation state or ethnic group), I suspect not. As we're never going to agree, let's leave it there.

[The Fish 10857]

 

 

It is incredibly difficult to translate, also has contradictions and major verses point to the writer believeibng in a flat earth.

 

It is like many religions daft. However it laso has many points about not killing women and children and does not demand all people convert to islam. Muhammed himself was quite happy to mix with non believers and the quran does specifically state that anyone visiting a different land must abide by their rules.

 

People want power, they have used many things to get this power and one of them is religion, that is what ISIS and Al Quaeda and indeed the IRA, UVF, Baader Meinhoff et al have all been about, power. The achieving of it and the use of it.

 

It is daft like all religions, so why are there no* Christians, Buddhists, Jews, killing innocent civilians in the name of their faith? There are plenty of Christians and Jews (and probably Buddhists) in impoverished areas of the planet that have been trodden on by the west, the east, the north and the south. Yet it's young muslim men committing acts of barbarous violence.

 

Islam isn't the root cause of attacks like Paris or 9/11, but it's certainly a catalyst.

 

*(that I know of, or certainly not in the numbers that Muslims are)

Edited November 25, 2015 by The Fish

[NJS 4385]

I don't see how the Hebdo killers relate to "power" - that was just religion inspired lunacy.

[Dr Gloom 21923]

Just in case anyone else is thinking of blaming Isis on the west, from the WSJ:

Helping the Escaped Slaves of ISIS

By SOHRAB AHMARI

Dohuk, Iraq

There are few therapists working today in Iraq, where mental health is a low priority in a country battling the jihadists of Islamic State, or ISIS. But in a nondescript apartment in this Kurdish city nestled in the mountains of northern Iraq, German psychologist Jan Ilhan Kizilhan runs a clinic for women who are victims of ISIS.

One of them at the clinic last week is named Sahira (Mr. Kizilhan asked that I use only the first names of his patients). She pulls out her smartphone and scrolls through photos until she finds the right one. It shows a smiling baby girl in polka-dot pajamas playing with a big pink ball. When ISIS in August 2014 overran the Yazidi stronghold of Sinjar, the 26-year-old Sahira and her three children, including Lozin, the 2-year-old in the photograph, were enslaved and transferred to the caliphate’s capital in Raqqa, Syria.

There, she says, they became the property of an ISIS commander named Abu Jihad, who was bent on Arabizing and Islamizing Sahira’s children. (The Yazidis are a Kurdish minority whose faith blends elements of Christianity and Islam with the region’s pre-Islamic religions.) After Lozin repeatedly failed to say Islamic prayers correctly, Abu Jihad locked the toddler inside a small box in the scorching heat. No one was allowed near the box for seven days.

Opinion Journal Video

AHA Foundation Founder Ayaan Hirsi Ali on how ISIS radicalizes Muslims on the continent. Photo credit: Getty Images.

After the box was finally unlocked, her mother says, Lozin was probably already close to death, but then the ISIS commander punched her in the small of her back, finishing off the baby before handing her over. Sahira says that when she protested, Abu Jihad lifted her daughter’s body high above his head and dropped her on the floor, and said: “The Yazidis are not believers. We can do anything we want with you.”

Sahira’s ordeal wasn’t over. For months she had resisted Abu Jihad’s attempts to rape her—until he raised the stakes by tying her 4-year-old son to a car and threatening to drag him to his death. She relented, and endured what followed. Eventually, Sahira’s family secured her and her two surviving children’s release by buying them back from ISIS.

How do you begin to heal scars like this? Mr. Kizilhan’s solution is to bring 1,000 of the severest cases to Baden-Württemberg, in southwest Germany, for a period of intensive treatment. The €95 million ($100 million) “preventative asylum” project is funded by the Baden-Württemberg state government. For Mr. Kizilhan, himself a Turkish-born Yazidi who immigrated to Germany at age 6, it’s personal. Islamic State doesn’t see Yazidis like him as human.

“As a scientist you learn that ideology can blind people,” he says. “In the morning they rape children, and at night when they go home they’re loving fathers and husbands.” To treat ISIS as just another al Qaeda-style terror group, he warns, is to ignore the “Nazi-like,” genocidal evolution of its Islamist worldview.

On each of his visits to Iraqi Kurdistan, Mr. Kizilhan interviews dozens of women to identify those most in need of evacuation. Most are Yazidis and Christians, with smaller numbers of Shiite Muslims. He is now close to the program’s head-count limit, forcing him to make wrenching decisions as the women take him on a tour of the depths of Islamic State depravity.

For the ISIS jihadists, slavery and the attendant sexual violence are intended to shatter non-Muslim societies. It is a family enterprise, with fighters’ female siblings and legitimate wives helping control slaves. Najaa, 24, and her 4-year-old niece spent nine months in the hands of ISIS. She was sold three times by fighters, all of whom “married” her (some Yazidi women use the word to avoid saying “rape”).

The worst part of her experience, she says, was watching helplessly as her ISIS “family” burned her niece’s hands and tied her in stress positions for speaking Kurdish instead of Arabic, or failing to recite Quranic passages. Najaa and her niece escaped Raqqa one day while her captor was out of the house. “I thought many times that I should commit suicide,” she tells Mr. Kizilhan. “But the only reason I didn’t was because I had to protect this girl.”

Today Najaa has fewer suicidal thoughts, but she says she “doesn’t believe in any human being.” Like many of Mr. Kizilhan’s patients, she has lost the trust that binds women to the world. Most experience episodes in which they lose contact with the present tense and imagine they are back in captivity. They lose hair, can’t concentrate and suffer nightmares.

Some fighters develop steady “relationships” with their slaves. Hadya, an 18-year-old Yazidi beauty, spent 15 months with an emir, or “prince,” and still has relatives in captivity. During the first few months the emir imprisoned her and repeatedly punched her in the head. Later he came to trust her and even took her on family outings. After she cut her wrists in an attempt to commit suicide, the emir’s sister took strict charge of his prized possession. Eventually she was bought back by her family for $15,000.

Islamic State’s cruelty is astonishing. So is the courage of the women who have faced it. The story of life under ISIS is also the story of the resilience of the human spirit. “I get strength from the women and girls,” Mr. Kizilhan says. “They tell you about horrific things, but they are still able to have perspective. This kind of trauma will always be part of your life. But the key is to not forget that it is not your whole life.”

Edited November 25, 2015 by Dr Gloom

[The Fish 10857]

I don't see how the Hebdo killers relate to "power" - that was just religion inspired lunacy.

If insulting their religion is so scary people don't do it; that's power, surely?