Dr Gloom 21823 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Double think and Thought crime innit Gloom. It's tricky one cause as I know you're aware we have to hold two conflicts thoughts in our heads to get through the day. We know the vast maj of muslims are safe and getting on with their lives and value living in the UK but something is there in the back of our minds... I go with my feminine side. The Western media have been the biggest propagators of Isis warblings. You simply couldn't dream up or buy that kind of coverage. I can sort of understand any sympathy for the recent attacks more, despite how awful they were, because they might be viewed as an retaliatory act of war against the Syria intervention. The sympathy for the Charlie Hebdo attacks looks seems to be more a case of moderate solidarity because of cartoonists' attacks against the prophet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 GG was quite balanced there. Singled out the Saudi's as well. ^^ That's where I've settled on it. Not sympathy so much as some kind of rationalization in the sense it's how we deal with it as people. We can't isolate the events and not factor in all the backstory obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted November 20, 2015 Author Share Posted November 20, 2015 https://news.vice.com/article/inside-the-100-million-scheme-to-send-the-middle-easts-most-unwanted-people-to-africa?utm_source=vicenewsfb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Good read that. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10750 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17112 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 https://news.vice.com/article/inside-the-100-million-scheme-to-send-the-middle-easts-most-unwanted-people-to-africa?utm_source=vicenewsfb Good read that. Thanks. Indeed. What's the exact relationship between the UAE government and Man City? Is that mansoor gadgie doing all the good works off his own bat or is some or all of it direct from the governments coffers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4129 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 https://www.facebook.com/ManhoosBilla101/videos/923391111085146/ A little glimpse of what Syrians are living through. Imagine being one of these kids. Just how different is bombing a school or a hospital or a wedding from the sort of things we refer to as terrorism? For kids like these, not different at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21364 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 https://www.facebook.com/ManhoosBilla101/videos/923391111085146/ A little glimpse of what Syrians are living through. Imagine being one of these kids. Just how different is bombing a school or a hospital or a wedding from the sort of things we refer to as terrorism? For kids like these, not different at all. There's a massive distinction morally wise in what the intent was. Horrible for those kids obviously, but no context what happened. Growing up under IS surely the worst possible thing imaginable though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4129 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Not referring to that video alone, there have been countless incidents of schools, weddings, hospitals being bombed in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, Syria etc over the last many years. Noone really knows what happens though of course, it is brushed aside extremely quickly. This year's US bombing of the MSF hospital in Afghanistan created a little stir, especially since it is known that the coordinates of the place were already known to US authorities. Similar incidents during Israel's onslaught of Gaza. But hey since its men in nice shiny uniforms its alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21364 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Not referring to that video alone, there have been countless incidents of schools, weddings, hospitals being bombed in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, Syria etc over the last many years. Noone really knows what happens though of course, it is brushed aside extremely quickly. This year's US bombing of the MSF hospital in Afghanistan created a little stir, especially since it is known that the coordinates of the place were already known to US authorities. Similar incidents during Israel's onslaught of Gaza. But hey since its men in nice shiny uniforms its alright. Well no, it's not alright, but are you saying these events are intentional? Are they morally equivalent to the Paris attacks? I accept though Gaza is extremely questionable btw, but would prefer to concentrate on US and European intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44425 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 It doesn't have to be intentional. That it happens as an accident that nobody gives a fuck about, again and again, is just as bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4129 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) Have you read about the MSF attack I talked about? They already knew about the coordinates and after the attack they were specifically informed again yet the attack continued on for an hour! That is not intentional? The subsequent explanations that there was an apparent Taliban attack on the hospital (which the people inside apparently knew nothing about) were even funnier. US and European interventions? Afghanistan? Iraq? Syria? Yeah those have all gone down really well with minimal civilian casualties. Edited November 20, 2015 by aimaad22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted November 20, 2015 Author Share Posted November 20, 2015 I'll leave this here for anyone interested to read. http://johnpilger.com/articles/from-pol-pot-to-isis-the-blood-never-dried Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4129 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 It doesn't have to be intentional. That it happens as an accident that nobody gives a fuck about, again and again, is just as bad. When about half a dozen of the world's superpowers bomb the shite out of a country in broad daylight you know what is going to happen. Its a choice we make, not a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21364 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 It doesn't have to be intentional. That it happens as an accident that nobody gives a fuck about, again and again, is just as bad. Really? Honestly couldn't disagree more with you, morality is everything to do with intention. Aimaad, I'm not going to argue about specific events I don't know enough about, and probably neither do you in all honesty. Quite an eye opener to me though the last few posts on here that tacitly equate the events of last week with the mistakes (imo) in a war zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Really? Honestly couldn't disagree more with you, morality is everything to do with intention. Aimaad, I'm not going to argue about specific events I don't know enough about, and probably neither do you in all honesty. Quite an eye opener to me though the last few posts on here that tacitly equate the events of last week with the mistakes (imo) in a war zone. Good read for you if you want to know more about the 'accident' at Kunduz. https://theintercept.com/2015/11/06/u-s-journalists-who-instantly-exonerated-their-government-of-the-kunduz-hospital-attack-declaring-it-an-accident/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21364 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Good read for you if you want to know more about the 'accident' at Kunduz. https://theintercept.com/2015/11/06/u-s-journalists-who-instantly-exonerated-their-government-of-the-kunduz-hospital-attack-declaring-it-an-accident/ Okay, read that, again tacit claims it was a deliberate massacre. Not a single plausible explanation or motive given why the US would do this though. HF, Gemmil, aimaad, are you equating this to Paris? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44425 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Really? Honestly couldn't disagree more with you, morality is everything to do with intention. Aimaad, I'm not going to argue about specific events I don't know enough about, and probably neither do you in all honesty. Quite an eye opener to me though the last few posts on here that tacitly equate the events of last week with the mistakes (imo) in a war zone. I'm once again left dumbfounded that you think I'm the one with the weird outlook here. I'm also going to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21364 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 I'm once again left dumbfounded that you think I'm the one with the weird outlook here. I'm also going to bed. Well, normal UK opinion would have you as having the weird outlook here. Sleep tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Okay, read that, again tacit claims it was a deliberate massacre. Not a single plausible explanation or motive given why the US would do this though. HF, Gemmil, aimaad, are you equating this to Paris? Why would the US do it? (5) Afghan officials from the start said explicitly that the hospital was a valid and intended target due to the presence of Taliban fighters as patients. And the US have a history of committing the war crime of targeting hospitals in contravention of the Geneva convention. http://www.thenation.com/article/look-for-hospitals-as-targets/ Paris was completely different. There were no beligerent targets whatsoever. Apples and oranges... Or should i say war crimes and terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4373 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Well, normal UK opinion would have you as having the weird outlook here. Sleep tight. I've been with you up to now but completely disagree here. The US has a yee-hah approach to modern warfare with drones etc that Bill Hicks described perfectly well after the first gulf war. I've always thought they invaded Afghanistan out of pure blood lust and only turned to Iraq after the former proved too easy (initially of course) and their appetite for blood, even with a so called liberal president shows no sign of abating. Shrugging your shoulders or down right denial of collateral damage is to me just as bad as terrorism - I see the parallel in the death penalty argument - I think states should hold themselves to higher moral standards than knackers with AK47s. And that's before we mention the way Bush's and Blair's faith draws another parallel with our previous discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21364 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Why would the US do it? (5) Afghan officials from the start said explicitly that the hospital was a valid and intended target due to the presence of Taliban fighters as patients. And the US have a history of committing the war crime of targeting hospitals in contravention of the Geneva convention. http://www.thenation.com/article/look-for-hospitals-as-targets/ Paris was completely different. There were no beligerent targets whatsoever. Apples and oranges... Or should i say war crimes and terrorism. Fair enough, I think you've nailed it in your last two sentences. Probably not right to equate the two, but I'm getting a strong sense here that some are. And once you do that, well it's pretty clear how and why Paris happened. And that links straight in with J69's objectionable posted (to me I mean) on the Paris thread. Always considered myself as left wing and progressive, sadly I just can't agree with a lot of the opinions on this board at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21364 Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 I've been with you up to now but completely disagree here. The US has a yee-hah approach to modern warfare with drones etc that Bill Hicks described perfectly well after the first gulf war. I've always thought they invaded Afghanistan out of pure blood lust and only turned to Iraq after the former proved too easy (initially of course) and their appetite for blood, even with a so called liberal president shows no sign of abating. Shrugging your shoulders or down right denial of collateral damage is to me just as bad as terrorism - I see the parallel in the death penalty argument - I think states should hold themselves to higher moral standards than knackers with AK47s. And that's before we mention the way Bush's and Blair's faith draws another parallel with our previous discussions. US and to a lesser extent UK foreign policy has been utterly disastrous since 9/11. But as far as I'm aware, the west has never d deliberately massacred innocent people anywhere. This is a massive distinction to me at least. I'm not sure either Bush or Blair believes in Jehovah either, well, Bush perhaps. I've also got much more respect for Obama than almost every one on here. He's in a massively difficult position, despite being US president. Always going to be a poisoned chalice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4373 Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 US and to a lesser extent UK foreign policy has been utterly disastrous since 9/11. But as far as I'm aware, the west has never d deliberately massacred innocent people anywhere. This is a massive distinction to me at least. I'm not sure either Bush or Blair believes in Jehovah either, well, Bush perhaps. I've also got much more respect for Obama than almost every one on here. He's in a massively difficult position, despite being US president. Always going to be a poisoned chalice. The hospital thing smacks of deliberation by the looks of things. I think Obama deserves credit for Healthcare but not closing guantanamo, prosecuting whistle blowers and killing more people with drones than bush would have dreamt of taints his presidency. I also think Blair and Bush both had a real sense of doing God's work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21823 Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Fair enough, I think you've nailed it in your last two sentences. Probably not right to equate the two, but I'm getting a strong sense here that some are. And once you do that, well it's pretty clear how and why Paris happened. And that links straight in with J69's objectionable posted (to me I mean) on the Paris thread. Always considered myself as left wing and progressive, sadly I just can't agree with a lot of the opinions on this board at all. I feel the same. I'm by far the most liberal member of my family. I'm always arguing against the west's actions and yet on here I feel like Nick Griffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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