Syria

[Ken 119]

Moral highground?

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-forces-used-chemical-weapons-during-assault-on-city-of-fallujah-514433.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/nov/15/usa.iraq

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/10/fallujah-birth-defects-ra_n_571119.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4440664.stm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/20/iraq-war-anniversary-birth-defects-cancer_n_2917701.html

[Toonpack 9443]

Putin has drawn a line on Syria and Iran by the looks of things...

Was bound to, the only vestige of any influence in the middle east/med that they have left.

[Dr Gloom 21939]

They borrow it. Banks love a war...etc...

 

ironic in an age of austerity that we can find money to spend on this

[Dr Gloom 21939]

cameron might be going for his falklands moment here, but i'm not sure he'll win the same popular support from entering another conflict in the middle east that thatcher was able to. even the daily mail's leader writers are pleading with the government to tread carefully.

[Park Life 71]

 

ironic in an age of austerity that we can find money to spend on this

The way they roll. Austerity is just for the lackeys.

[Park Life 71]

cameron might be going for his falklands moment here, but i'm not sure he'll win the same popular support from entering another conflict in the middle east that thatcher was able to. even the daily mail's leader writers are pleading with the government to tread carefully.

There will be some concern etc...But if the big boys want it, it will happen...Of course when the blowback comes that will be an excuse for futher big brother stuff...Cycle continues...

 

They want to isolate Iran before going after it...

 

Keep and eye on Putin...

 

China got a couple of oil fields in Iraq for keeping their heads down..

Edited August 29, 2013 by Park Life

[Park Life 71]

Moral highground?

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-forces-used-chemical-weapons-during-assault-on-city-of-fallujah-514433.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/nov/15/usa.iraq

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/10/fallujah-birth-defects-ra_n_571119.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4440664.stm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/20/iraq-war-anniversary-birth-defects-cancer_n_2917701.html

The second, in California's North County Times, was by a reporter embedded with the marines in the April 2004 siege of Falluja. "'Gun up!' Millikin yelled ... grabbing a white phosphorus round from a nearby ammo can and holding it over the tube. 'Fire!' Bogert yelled, as Millikin dropped it. The boom kicked dust around the pit as they ran through the drill again and again, sending a mixture of burning white phosphorus and high explosives they call 'shake'n'bake' into... buildings where insurgents have been spotted all week."

White phosphorus is not listed in the schedules of the Chemical Weapons Convention. It can be legally used as a flare to illuminate the battlefield, or to produce smoke to hide troop movements from the enemy. Like other unlisted substances, it may be deployed for "Military purposes... not dependent on the use of the toxic properties of chemicals as a method of warfare". But it becomes a chemical weapon as soon as it is used directly against people. A chemical weapon can be "any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm".

[PaddockLad 17283]

cameron might be going for his falklands moment here, but i'm not sure he'll win the same popular support from entering another conflict in the middle east that thatcher was able to. even the daily mail's leader writers are pleading with the government to tread carefully.

 

 

 

 

 

Labour blocked it yesterday, said the only thing theyd support is full UN security council agreement on use of force and to wait until the UN observers have delivered their report. If it fingers Assad the Russians and Chinese will veto any use of force.

 

The whole thing is hugely complicated, no one wants to arm the rebels as theyve been infiltrated by jihadists, we'd ending up arming another Bin Laden. Am all for doing nowt; its basically a war between Shias and Sunnis and frankly fuck all to do with anyone else. the trouble with That is all Syria's neighbours, Russia and the US are all pretty much involved. All I'd call for is more cash for NGO's helping the victims and refugees.

Edited August 29, 2013 by PaddockLad

[Park Life 71]

This is an election winner for Labour if they play them cards right..

[Ken 119]

The second, in California's North County Times, was by a reporter embedded with the marines in the April 2004 siege of Falluja. "'Gun up!' Millikin yelled ... grabbing a white phosphorus round from a nearby ammo can and holding it over the tube. 'Fire!' Bogert yelled, as Millikin dropped it. The boom kicked dust around the pit as they ran through the drill again and again, sending a mixture of burning white phosphorus and high explosives they call 'shake'n'bake' into... buildings where insurgents have been spotted all week."

White phosphorus is not listed in the schedules of the Chemical Weapons Convention. It can be legally used as a flare to illuminate the battlefield, or to produce smoke to hide troop movements from the enemy. Like other unlisted substances, it may be deployed for "Military purposes... not dependent on the use of the toxic properties of chemicals as a method of warfare". But it becomes a chemical weapon as soon as it is used directly against people. A chemical weapon can be "any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm".

Yup.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4440664.stm

[Dr Gloom 21939]

This is an election winner for Labour if they play them cards right..

 

and yet if they were in power they'd be following the US into strikes like a puppy dog too. doesn't matter who is in power, they're all the same on some levels

[Christmas Tree 4728]

The UK government has published a statement on the legality of foreign military action in Syria. "The legal basis for military action would be humanitarian intervention; the aim is to relieve humanitarian suffering by deterring or disrupting the further use of chemical weapons," it says.

[Ken 119]

The UK government has published a statement on the legality of foreign military action in Syria. "The legal basis for military action would be humanitarian intervention; the aim is to relieve humanitarian suffering by deterring or disrupting the further use of chemical weapons," it says.

Ah right. With that purely in mind, who do the UK govt focus their attention on? Who gets a nice cup of whoop-ass?

[Park Life 71]

The UK government has published a statement on the legality of foreign military action in Syria. "The legal basis for military action would be humanitarian intervention; the aim is to relieve humanitarian suffering by deterring or disrupting the further use of chemical weapons," it says.

Still illegal.

 

Intervention has to be sanctioned by the UN. We are a signatory to all the UN protocols. They are just trying to get round Russia who will block it. Anyway why not wait for the full report first?

[The Fish 10858]

Love the nonsense of "legal" or "illegal" war.

 

Ludicrous the things we choose to care about.

[Dr Gloom 21939]

The UK government has published a statement on the legality of foreign military action in Syria. "The legal basis for military action would be humanitarian intervention; the aim is to relieve humanitarian suffering by deterring or disrupting the further use of chemical weapons," it says.

and yet there are so many other examples of humanitarian suffering around the world that we choose to ignore.

[CleeToonFan 1]

Up to a million people were massacred in Rwanda, many bludgeoned to death with machetes. The West did fuck all. Where's the moral distinction?

Surely that's more a reason to help? Learn from mistakes.

[Gemmill 44931]

Fuck this imo. Keep well out of it.

[Ayatollah Hermione 13882]

Fuck this imo. Keep well out of it.

 

"Nar, Dave, ye divvin't want to get involved with a domestic, lad. Stay well away and stare into your pint"

[essembeeofsunderland 811]

just let them get on with it because if assad is toppled,the bloke who takes over will also not be accepted and around and around they go killing each other

[The Fish 10858]

Fuck this imo. Keep well out of it.

So, What’s It Going To Be?

Commentary • Opinion • ISSUE 49•35 • Aug 28, 2013

By Bashar al-Assad

Well, here we are. It’s been two years of fighting, over 100,000 people are dead, there are no signs of this war ending, and a week ago I used chemical weapons on my own people. If you don’t do anything about it, thousands of Syrians are going to die. If you do something about it, thousands of Syrians are going to die. Morally speaking, you’re on the hook for those deaths no matter how you look at it.

 

So, it’s your move, America. What’s it going to be?

 

I’ve looked at your options, and I’m going to be honest here, I feel for you. Not exactly an embarrassment of riches you’ve got to choose from, strategy-wise. I mean, my God, there are just so many variables to consider, so many possible paths to choose, each fraught with incredible peril, and each leading back to the very real, very likely possibility that no matter what you do it’s going to backfire in a big, big way. It’s a good old-fashioned mess, is what this is! And now, you have to make some sort of decision that you can live with.

 

So, where do I begin? Well, this is just the tip of the iceberg, but let’s start with the fact that my alliance with Russia and China means that nothing you decide to do will have the official support of the UN Security Council. So, right off the bat, I’ve already eliminated the possibility of a legally sound united coalition like in Libya or the First Gulf War. Boom. Gone. Off the table.

 

Now, let’s say you’re okay with that, and you decide to go ahead with, oh, I don’t know, a bombing campaign. Now, personally, I can see how that might seem like an attractive option for you. No boots on the ground, it sends a clear message, you could cripple some of my government’s infrastructure, and it’s a quick, clean, easy way to punish me and make you look strong in the face of my unimaginable tyranny. But let’s get real here. Any bombing campaign capable of being truly devastating to my regime would also end up killing a ton of innocent civilians, as such things always do, which I imagine is the kind of outcome you people would feel very guilty about. You know, seeing as you are so up in arms to begin with about innocent Syrians dying. Plus, you’d stoke a lot of anti-American hatred and quite possibly create a whole new generation of Syrian-born jihadists ready to punish the United States for its reckless warmongering and yadda yadda yadda.

 

Okay, what else? Well, you could play small-ball and hope that limited airstrikes to a few of my key military installations will send me the message to refrain from using chemical weapons again, but, c’mon, check me out: I’m ruthless, I’m desperate, and I’m going to do everything I can to stay in power. I’d use chemical weapons again in a heartbeat. You know that. And I know you know that. Hell, I want to help you guys out here, but you gotta be realistic. Trust me, I am incapable of being taught a lesson at this point. Got it? I am too far gone. Way too far gone.

 

Oh, and I know some of you think a no-fly zone will do the trick, but we both know you can’t stomach the estimated $1 billion a month that would cost, so wave bye-bye to that one, too.

 

Moving on.

 

I suppose you could always, you know, not respond with military force at all. But how can you do that? I pumped sarin gas into the lungs of my own people, for God’s sake! You can’t just let me get away with that, can you? I mean, I guess you easily could, and spare yourself all of this headache, but then you would probably lose any of your remaining moral high ground on the world stage and make everything from the Geneva Conventions to America’s reputation as a beacon for freedom and democracy around the world look like a complete sham.

 

And, hey, as long as we’re just throwing stuff out there, let’s consider a ground invasion for a moment. Now, even if you could reasonably fund a ground invasion, which I’m pretty sure you can’t, what exactly would such an invasion accomplish in the long term? I suppose it’s possible that you could come in and sweep me out the door and that would be the end of it. It’s possible. You know, like, in the sense that seeing a majestic white Bengal tiger in the wild is possible. Or, more likely, you could find yourself entrenched in a full-blown civil war that drags on for 15 years and sets off further turmoil in the rest of the region, leading to even more dead bodies for your country and mine, and even more virulent hatred of America. In fact, boy, maybe this is the one option that should be totally off the table.

 

Oh, and speaking of me being toppled from power, let’s say, just for fun, that tomorrow I were to somehow be dethroned. Who’s in charge? Half of these rebel groups refuse to work with one another and it’s getting harder to tell which ones are actually just Islamic extremists looking to fill a potential power vacuum. We’ve got Christians, Sunnis, and Shias all poised to fight one another for control should I fall. You want to be the ones sorting through that mess when you’re trying to build a new government? I didn’t think so.

 

So, all in all, quite the pickle you’re in, isn’t it? I have to say, I do not envy you here. Really curious to see where you go with this one.

I’ll leave you with this: I am insane. Not insane enough to generate worldwide unanimity that I cannot remain in charge of my own country. That would make this a lot easier. No, unfortunately, I’m just sane and stable enough to remain in power and devise cunning military and political strategies while at the same time adhering to a standard of morality that only the most perverse and sociopathic among us would be capable of adopting. But nevertheless, I am insane, so do with that information what you will.

 

Long story short, I’m going to keep doing my best to hold on to my country no matter what the cost. If that means bombing entire towns, murdering small children, or shooting at UN weapons inspectors, so be it. I’m in this for the long haul. And you will do...whatever it is you’re going to do, which is totally up to you.

 

Your call.

 

Anyway, let me know what you decide. I’ll be waiting.

 

 

[Park Life 71]

GG strikes them down.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Han5fgzy4KU

[Christmas Tree 4728]

GG strikes them down.

 

He's an absolutely fabulous orator.

[trophyshy 7083]

Although I agree with much of his sentiment today, MiliBand is a disgrace as leader of the opposition.

 

3 years he's been at this job and he still sounds like Pitt the Embryo.

[Gemmill 44931]

He's an absolutely fabulous orator.

Excellent cat impersonator too.