Soldier killed

[CleeToonFan 1]

Fair enough. Narh I don't, just confused that people actually believe it when they have access to more than just 'what my parents told me.'Nothing against Islam in particular, one of my most recent annoyances was hearing Christians saying 'that dog survived the tornado due to Gods will.' Oh so God wants one dog to survive whilst many children die. Mostly I don't care though, don't worry, in general the British are more scared about criticism Islam than Christianity and Judaism.

Typed from a phone, can't be arsed to change errors.

Edited May 23, 2013 by CleeToonFan

[StevenL 0]

Lee Rigby. Leaves behind a 2 year old kid.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22644857

 

Sigh.

[aimaad22 4168]

Fair enough. Narh I don't, just confused that people actually believe it when they have access to more than just 'what my parents told me.'Nothing against Islam in particular, one of my most recent annoyances was hearing Christians saying 'that dog survived the tornado due to Gods will.' Oh so God wants one dog to survive whilst many children die. Mostly I don't care though, don't worry, in general the British are more scared about criticism Islam than Christianity and Judaism.

Typed from a phone, can't be arsed to change errors.

 

Ah, one of those who thinks God should be a babysitter who gives us a helping hand when we stumble eh? A fall back mechanism when nothing else works? So if that doesnt happen there's no God.

 

Dont mean to start that debate here, way too long and already done to death on the internet probably.

[CleeToonFan 1]

I don't think he should kill children en masse. Aye done to death and StevenL's sigh has a point, that unfornunate lad and his kidswho people SHOULD be talking about.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3925]

And the lad was a drummer. This means he would have been a field medic and non combatant.

[StevenL 0]

Nice to see the Help For Heroes website shop has been crashed for 2 days now.

 

Assuming it's because of the sheer volume of hits.

[luckyluke 2]

Well here we are, apparently the Sunni Shi'ite animosity and conflict isn't religious because it's not in the Koran. Do you think catholicism and Protestantism is discussed in the Bible? Do you think that the sectarianism seen in Northern Ireland is not religious in nature? Then you're deluded.

 

All Holy texts are subjective and open to interpretation, whose to say your moderate reading is more valid than a lunatic suicide bomber. Religion is absolutely fundamental to the problem, but because of special pleading the connection which is staring you in the face is denied.

 

Fucking hell Renton, I thought you were supposed to be smart. The troubles in NI are certainly not "religious in nature". I've tried to explain this a few times in a succinct and simple way but I can't be arsed after a 12 hour day, look up the origins of it you thick cunt.

[Renton 21746]

Fucking hell Renton, I thought you were supposed to be smart. The troubles in NI are certainly not "religious in nature". I've tried to explain this a few times in a succinct and simple way but I can't be arsed after a 12 hour day, look up the origins of it you thick cunt.

 

Being half Glaswegian and experiencing religion and bigotry first hand in that city I beg to disagree. You can dress it up as cultural, historic, or any which way you want but fundamentally its down to different religious viewpoints. To put it another way, if the protestant reformation had never happened and this country was still catholic there would likely be none of the problems in northern Ireland or western Scotland that we see today.

 

Or maybe I'm wrong and just a thick cunt, maybe religion has nothing to do with sectarianism whatsoever. I'm prepared to be enlightened by this latest revelation and pass it on to my northern friends and relatives. You might want to consider not being the condescending' patronising wanker though when you're not too tired to educate me.

[luckyluke 2]

Sorry about the insults. Very long day.

It's not really about religion though is it? It's about oppression, the haves and the have nots, the Protestants from mainland Britain conquering the Catholic Ireland, and ruling with a discriminatory iron fist. The GPO was nothing to do with religion. As years went by who came from where became blurred but the labels of the denominations stayed the same. And so on and so on.

[catmag 337]

And the lad was a drummer. This means he would have been a field medic and non combatant.

 

He was a machine gunner and in the Fire Support Group. Not medical at all.

[Renton 21746]

Sorry about the insults. Very long day.

It's not really about religion though is it? It's about oppression, the haves and the have nots, the Protestants from mainland Britain conquering the Catholic Ireland, and ruling with a discriminatory iron fist. The GPO was nothing to do with religion. As years went by who came from where became blurred but the labels of the denominations stayed the same. And so on and so on.

 

Most sociologists believe religious segregation and religious apartheid are the main causes of the NI problems. Notice the adjective there. As a secularist, this is what I want to see dismantled. It would solve the problem in 3 generations. But it won't happen, because people deny that religion has anything to do with it and want to cling to their tradition and bigotry. The same applies to conflicts the world over.

 

Multiculturism will inevitably lead to extremism and events like we have seen, and is tragic. Yet for pointing this out, I've been accused of being racist and worse. I'm no Leazes like, but within his warped ideology he did have some valid points.

[trophyshy 7083]

Religion is relevant, but war, injustice, resentment and revenge are at least as relevant, as HF has consistently highlighted above. In terms of atrocities our governments currently do far worse than any religions, seems to me they are the real problem and it is convenient for them to (foster) blame upon something as nebulous as an idea, when it is their ideology which should be under the spotlight.

 

"I am a former soldier. I completed one tour of duty in Afghanistan, refused on legal and moral grounds to serve a second tour, and spent five months in a military prison as a result. When the news about the attack in Woolwich broke, by pure coincidence Ross Caputi was crashing on my sofa. Ross is a soft-spoken ex-US marine turned film-maker who served in Iraq and witnessed the pillaging and irradiation of Falluja. He is also a native of Boston, the scene of a recent homegrown terror attack. Together, we watched the news, and right away we were certain that what we were seeing was informed by the misguided military adventures in which we had taken part.

 

So at the very outset, and before the rising tide of prejudice and pseudo-patriotism fully encloses us, let us be clear: while nothing can justify the savage killing in Woolwich yesterday of a man since confirmed to have been a serving British soldier, it should not be hard to explain why the murder happened.

 

These awful events cannot be explained in the almost Texan terms of Colonel Richard Kemp, who served as commander of British forces in Afghanistan in 2001. He tweeted on last night that they were "not about Iraq or Afghanistan", but were an attack on "our way of life". Plenty of others are saying the same.

 

But let's start by examining what emerged from the mouths of the assailants themselves. In an accent that was pure London, according to one of the courageous women who intervened at the scene, one alleged killer claimed he was "… fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan …". It is unclear whether it was the same man, or his alleged co-assailant, who said "… bring our [Note: our] troops home so we can all live in peace".

 

It should by now be self-evident that by attacking Muslims overseas, you will occasionally spawn twisted and, as we saw yesterday, even murderous hatred at home. We need to recognise that, given the continued role our government has chosen to play in the US imperial project in the Middle East, we are lucky that these attacks are so few and far between.

It is equally important to point out, however, that rejection of and opposition to the toxic wars that informed yesterday's attacks is by no means a "Muslim" trait. Vast swaths of the British population also stand in opposition to these wars, including many veterans of the wars like myself and Ross, as well as serving soldiers I speak to who cannot be named here for fear of persecution.

 

Yet this anti-war view, so widely held and strongly felt, finds no expression in a parliament for whom the merest whiff of boot polish or military jargon causes a fit of "Tommy this, Tommy that …" jingoism. The fact is, there are two majority views in this country: one in the political body that says war, war and more war; and one in the population which says it's had enough of giving up its sons and daughter abroad and now, again, at home.

 

For 12 years British Muslims have been set upon, pilloried and alienated by successive governments and by the media for things that they did not do. We must say clearly that the alleged actions of these two men are theirs alone, regardless of being informed by the wars, and we should not descend into yet another round of collective responsibility peddling.

 

Indeed, if there is collective responsibility for the killings, it belongs to the hawks whose policies have caused bloodbaths – directly, as in Afghanistan and Iraq, and indirectly in places as far apart as Woolwich and Boston, which in turn have created political space for the far right to peddle their hatred, as we saw in the immediate aftermath of the Woolwich attack.

 

What we must do now is straightforward enough. Our own responsibilities are first of all to make sure innocents are not subject to blanket punishment for things that they did not do, and to force our government – safe in their houses – to put an end to Britain's involvement in the vicious foreign occupations that have again created bloodshed in London."

 

MH

 

This quote was found on facebook https://www.facebook...124563204315456

Edited May 24, 2013 by trophyshy

[Happy Face 29]

As a secularist, this is what I want to see dismantled. It would solve the problem in 3 generations. But it won't happen, because people deny that religion has anything to do with it and want to cling to their tradition and bigotry. The same applies to conflicts the world over.

 

I think the first 3 words of this quote are what sway your view on the latter. You seem to be applying a stong personal anti-religious sentiment on the situation. I'm an atheist too, I see the awful things religion does. The only way to combat that is education. Developed nations continue to see dwindling belief in any of the major religions. As developing nations improve their education systems a similar pattern will follow. Of course....that will NEVER happen while those countries are war zones which we continue to bomb back to the 12th century, and people in poverty look for something to cling to.

 

The notion that there would not be any geo-political wranglings without religion is also absurd. The National interests of the USA usurp any religious or moral spin that Dubya and Obama put on it. The response to their invasion, occupation and bombing of half a dozen (Muslim) countries, their torture, rendition and drone campaign would prompt a response from the victims on a patriotic level. The fact that all of the victims ARE muslim only adds to the resentment of what you call the brotherhood.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3925]

 

 

He was a machine gunner and in the Fire Support Group. Not medical at all.

 

Christ shows how old I am and how much they have cut numbers. All musicians and corp of drums were medics when I was in..

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3925]

Being half Glaswegian and experiencing religion and bigotry first hand in that city I beg to disagree. You can dress it up as cultural, historic, or any which way you want but fundamentally its down to different religious viewpoints. To put it another way, if the protestant reformation had never happened and this country was still catholic there would likely be none of the problems in northern Ireland or western Scotland that we see today.

 

Or maybe I'm wrong and just a thick cunt, maybe religion has nothing to do with sectarianism whatsoever. I'm prepared to be enlightened by this latest revelation and pass it on to my northern friends and relatives. You might want to consider not being the condescending' patronising wanker though when you're not too tired to educate me.

 

Renton mate you are sounding like a foaming at the mouth preacher with your anti religion stance. Not all bad people in the world are motivated by religion. Some are, some use religion as a tool and others like Hitler do bad things to millions of people without Religion being involved in any way.

[Renton 21746]

Foaming at the mouth? Have you read the provocative post I was referring to? Would you not agree though that religious segregation is THE main issue in Northern Ireland? If not, what is?

[Renton 21746]

 

 

I think the first 3 words of this quote are what sway your view on the latter. You seem to be applying a stong personal anti-religious sentiment on the situation. I'm an atheist too, I see the awful things religion does. The only way to combat that is education. Developed nations continue to see dwindling belief in any of the major religions. As developing nations improve their education systems a similar pattern will follow. Of course....that will NEVER happen while those countries are war zones which we continue to bomb back to the 12th century, and people in poverty look for something to cling to.

 

The notion that there would not be any geo-political wranglings without religion is also absurd. The National interests of the USA usurp any religious or moral spin that Dubya and Obama put on it. The response to their invasion, occupation and bombing of half a dozen (Muslim) countries, their torture, rendition and drone campaign would prompt a response from the victims on a patriotic level. The fact that all of the victims ARE muslim only adds to the resentment of what you call the brotherhood.

 

Good post and largely I agree. My secular stance though is limited to this country. I'm an advocate of banning faith schools and massively encouraging integration and pushing societal values and responsibilities. More like France and how the US should have been as envisioned by the founding fathers. This might help our particular plight, after all, all the muslim terrorists we have had have been home grown, have they not?

[ewerk 30765]

Foaming at the mouth? Have you read the provocative post I was referring to? Would you not agree though that religious segregation is THE main issue in Northern Ireland? If not, what is?

 

Although the conflict is largely fought along religious lines, religion is not the reason for our problems. No fucker is getting shot because he disagrees with the doctrine of transubstantiation.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3925]

Foaming at the mouth? Have you read the provocative post I was referring to? Would you not agree though that religious segregation is THE main issue in Northern Ireland? If not, what is?

 

Social exclusion was what started it the Protestants controlled everything the unions the council jobs housing. It was the fact that hey politically controlled everything and excluded the Catholic minority from decent jobs and education which kicked it all off. All these UVF, UDA, UFF nutters didn't give a shit about the reformation. They wanted to control the social fabric of Ulster. This allowed the IRA to tag Irish Republicanism to a wider CIvil RIghts movement.

[Renton 21746]

 

 

Although the conflict is largely fought along religious lines, religion is not the reason for our problems. No fucker is getting shot because he disagrees with the doctrine of transubstantiation.

 

Culturally the groups are virtually identical except for religion. Take away this, and what else have they got to divide them? And I actually have witnessed arguments over transubstantiation, believe it or not (my Scottish family are mixed).

 

This of course is a side point to the main issue in this thread. Denying the part religion had to play in this atrocity is not helpful.

[NJS 4399]

It's all about tribalism. Whether it's race, country, religion, politics or football humans want to belong.

 

Of course the rich and powerful have always used these tools for their purposes but its my forlorn hope that as more people recognise this manipulation they'll learn to reject it.

 

The reason religion is the most insidious in my view is that it uses human fear of death and the unknown as its core basis.

[ewerk 30765]

Culturally the groups are virtually identical except for religion. Take away this, and what else have they got to divide them?

 

KCG gave a decent summary of it above.

[NJS 4399]

 

KCG gave a decent summary of it above.

 

But how would discrimination work without name/school/address to help?

 

 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3925]

But how would discrimination work without name/school/address to help?

 

Colour, Clans, Ethnicity, Class, Family groups. All of these things are non religious and still cause Discrimination today.

[Renton 21746]

Do they cause barbarism like we saw on Wednesday though?