Soldier killed

[Kid Dynamite 6964]

Sigh, everytime an incident like this happens its the same predictable reaction.

 

As a muslim Im well past being bothered by it by now. What absolutely sickens me though is that 40 people bombed to death in an Afghan wedding by a drone doesnt even cause a hundredth of the reaction. What kind of world are we living in? Its just depressing.

 

Believe what you want but as someone right in the middle of your 'war on terror' over the last 12 years, all this has got very little to do with religion.

 

Since 9/11 there have been close to 400 suicide bombings in Pakistan. Four fucking hundred! Can you believe that? Thats just suicide bombings, forget the tons of other planted bombs, rocket attacks etc etc. Now how many were there before 9/11? One. Yeah, just one. Despite all the turmoil in Afghanistan, despite the Taliban sitting next door, despite our armed tribal militants, depsite the fact we were all still muslims, despite the fact there was even then no shortage of crazed mullahs, just one attack in over 50 years. Since then? Absolute turmoil. Make of it what you want.

 

I feel pretty helpless about the whole sorry mess. I wish our troops would pull out of the Middle East and I wish lslamic Extremists would stop their attacks. I wish people would just stop killing people full stop tbh. How is your average man on the street supposed to influence any of this though?

[Happy Face 29]

How is your average man on the street supposed to influence any of this though?

 

"Asked at a Senate hearing today how long the war on terrorism will last, Michael Sheehan, the assistant secretary of defense for special operations and low-intensity conflict, answered, 'At least 10 to 20 years.' . . . A spokeswoman, Army Col. Anne Edgecomb, clarified that Sheehan meant the conflict is likely to last 10 to 20 more years from today - atop the 12 years that the conflict has already lasted. Welcome to America's Thirty Years War."

 

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/05/decades-of-war/

[aimaad22 4085]

I feel pretty helpless about the whole sorry mess. I wish our troops would pull out of the Middle East and I wish lslamic Extremists would stop their attacks. I wish people would just stop killing people full stop tbh. How is your average man on the street supposed to influence any of this though?

 

Yeah. No justice, no peace. Simple as that in the end.

 

Average man, I dont know, elect better leaders perhaps? Easier said than done though. Everyone thought Obama was the 'change' that was needed. Not sure what the Americans think of him now but as far as foreing policy goes he's turned out to be as bad as the nutter before him. Similalry the clowns who run Pakistan have as much a hand in this mess as their foreign counterparts have.

[aimaad22 4085]

I like George Galloway though, I understand he's a controversial character up there, but speaks a lot of sense imo

[Renton 21049]

Sigh, everytime an incident like this happens its the same predictable reaction.

 

As a muslim Im well past being bothered by it by now. What absolutely sickens me though is that 40 people bombed to death in an Afghan wedding by a drone doesnt even cause a hundredth of the reaction. What kind of world are we living in? Its just depressing.

 

Believe what you want but as someone right in the middle of your 'war on terror' over the last 12 years, all this has got very little to do with religion.

 

Since 9/11 there have been close to 400 suicide bombings in Pakistan. Four fucking hundred! Can you believe that? Thats just suicide bombings, forget the tons of other planted bombs, rocket attacks etc etc. Now how many were there before 9/11? One. Yeah, just one. Despite all the turmoil in Afghanistan, despite the Taliban sitting next door, despite our armed tribal militants, depsite the fact we were all still muslims, despite the fact there was even then no shortage of crazed mullahs, just one attack in over 50 years. Since then? Absolute turmoil. Make of it what you want.

 

Well in the case of Iraq, it was the toppling of a stabilising dictator that has led to Sunni's and Shi'ite mass murdering each other. Two strands of the same religion ffs. People who don't think it is religion generally and islam specifically that are the cause of these atrocities are deluded. Because as has been said, you can interpret a 'holy' book how you want, and one interpretation justifies this.

[aimaad22 4085]

Well in the case of Iraq, it was the toppling of a stabilising dictator that has led toYou Sunni's and Shi'ite mass murdering each other. Two strands of the same religion ffs. People who don't think it is religion generally and islam specifically that are the cause of these atrocities are deluded. Because as has been said, you can interpret a 'holy' book how you want, and one interpretation justifies this.

 

Actually no, it doesnt. Noone can help it if a crackpot chooses to misinterpret it though.

 

Why do you think they murder each other in Iraq though? Do you think its religious? Do you know there's absolutely no concept of Sunni and Shia in the Quran?

 

Its political, as everything always is. Painting a religious picture over it always helps though. Gets the loonies in on the act and causes mass hysteria, nothing provides a better cover up.

 

Tell me seriously, its been 12 years since 9/11. Yet these suicide bombers and crazed attackers etc keep popping up all over the place. Thousands by now. Do you honestly think there are enough stupid people who believe the 'go blow yourself up son and go to heaven' mantra? I think the countless people who have been left homeless/family less by the military operations since 9/11 are far better motivated. Waking up one day to find his family and village in the tribal belt on the Afghan border was bombed to the ground by the air force, what state of mind do you think a young man working in Islamabad will be?

Edited May 23, 2013 by aimaad22

[Happy Face 29]

Tell me seriously, its been 12 years since 9/11. Yet these suicide bombers and crazed attackers etc keep popping up all over the place. Thousands by now. Do you honestly think there are enough stupid people who believe the 'go blow yourself up son and go to heaven' mantra? I think the countless people who have been left homeless/family less by the military operations since 9/11 are far better motivated. Waking up one day to find his family and village in the tribal belt on the Afghan border was bombed to the ground by the air force, what state of mind do you think a young man working in Islamabad will be?

 

New York Times piece by a young Yemeni writer on the impact and morality of drone-bombing his country...

 

Drone strikes are causing more and more Yemenis to hate America and join radical militants; they are not driven by ideology but rather by a sense of revenge and despair. . . .

 

 

"Anti-Americanism is far less prevalent in Yemen than in Pakistan. But rather than winning the hearts and minds of Yemeni civilians, America is alienating them by killing their relatives and friends. . . . Certainly, there may be short-term military gains from killing militant leaders in these strikes, but they are minuscule compared with the long-term damage the drone program is causing. A new generation of leaders is spontaneously emerging in furious retaliation to attacks on their territories and tribes. . . .

 

"Unfortunately, liberal voices in the United States are largely ignoring, if not condoning, civilian deaths and extrajudicial killings in Yemen — including the assassination of three American citizens in September 2011, including a 16-year-old. During George W. Bush's presidency, the rage would have been tremendous. But today there is little outcry, even though what is happening is in many ways an escalation of Mr. Bush's policies.

"Defenders of human rights must speak out. America's counterterrorism policy here is not only making Yemen less safe by strengthening support for A.Q.A.P. [al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula] but it could also ultimately endanger the United States and the entire world."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/14/opinion/how-drones-help-al-qaeda.html?_r=1&

 

He was invited to testify before a senate sub-committee in Washington too.

 

His full testimony is impressive and reprinted here....

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/01/ibrahim-mothana-yemen-drones-obama

[Renton 21049]

Well here we are, apparently the Sunni Shi'ite animosity and conflict isn't religious because it's not in the Koran. Do you think catholicism and Protestantism is discussed in the Bible? Do you think that the sectarianism seen in Northern Ireland is not religious in nature? Then you're deluded.

 

All Holy texts are subjective and open to interpretation, whose to say your moderate reading is more valid than a lunatic suicide bomber. Religion is absolutely fundamental to the problem, but because of special pleading the connection which is staring you in the face is denied.

[Happy Face 29]

Well here we are, apparently the Sunni Shi'ite animosity and conflict isn't religious because it's not in the Koran. Do you think catholicism and Protestantism is discussed in the Bible? Do you think that the sectarianism seen in Northern Ireland is not religious in nature? Then you're deluded.

 

All Holy texts are subjective and open to interpretation, whose to say your moderate reading is more valid than a lunatic suicide bomber. Religion is absolutely fundamental to the problem, but because of special pleading the connection which is staring you in the face is denied.

 

If you're looking to resolve the conflicts that have a religious element, do you think that a religious solution is possible, where the beligerents will accept each others god and put a stop to hostilities, irrespective of colonial concerns?

 

Or do you think a diplomatic solution is more likely, one that sees concessions in terms of land and/or military presence?

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3788]

If there was no religion would this be happening?

A huge question and impossible to answer. The Khmer Rouge murdered millions (aided by Margaret Thatcher) because of ideology. Hitler and his cronies who were generally atheistic murdered people based on ethnic grouping (jews didnt get let off by converting). Sunni's and Shia's kill because of ethnicity and politics. Could somone have kicked all this off based on ethnic divides and geo political ideology?

[Sonatine 11276]

There aren't half some thick fucks around.....

 

[Happy Face 29]

 

Up there with lynching paedeatricians.

[Renton 21049]

 

 

If you're looking to resolve the conflicts that have a religious element, do you think that a religious solution is possible, where the beligerents will accept each others god and put a stop to hostilities, irrespective of colonial concerns?

 

Or do you think a diplomatic solution is more likely, one that sees concessions in terms of land and/or military presence?

 

I think western conflict in the middle east wad inevitable after 9/11, although I was against it and still am. I knew the outcome would be negative. BUT 9/11 came first and was indicative of growing problems with islamic fundamentalism. A no action policy would not have stopped this imo.

 

I don't have the solutions to this mess, but I'm honest enough to know what the fundamental problem is which is religion, and it has been throughout mankind's history.

[Renton 21049]

If there was no religion would this be happening?

A huge question and impossible to answer. The Khmer Rouge murdered millions (aided by Margaret Thatcher) because of ideology. Hitler and his cronies who were generally atheistic murdered people based on ethnic grouping (jews didnt get let off by converting). Sunni's and Shia's kill because of ethnicity and politics. Could somone have kicked all this off based on ethnic divides and geo political ideology?

 

Hitler wasn't atheist and certainly didn't kill in the name of atheism, it's boring this untruth is constantly peddled. You can't ban religion, I know. But a concerted effort to move towards a truly secular society where extremism isn't tolerated in any faction would be a start.

[Happy Face 29]

9/11 did not come first.

 

In 1993, after the first attack on the World Trade Centre, Ramzi Yousef explained his own motivation, which is very similar to those I posted above...

 

"We declare our responsibility for the explosion on the mentioned building. This action was done in response for the American political, economical, and military support to Israel, the state of terrorism, and to the rest of the dictator countries in the region."

 

He was a muslim too...but converted to Christianity in 2005.

[aimaad22 4085]

Well here we are, apparently the Sunni Shi'ite animosity and conflict isn't religious because it's not in the Koran. Do you think catholicism and Protestantism is discussed in the Bible? Do you think that the sectarianism seen in Northern Ireland is not religious in nature? Then you're deluded.

 

All Holy texts are subjective and open to interpretation, whose to say your moderate reading is more valid than a lunatic suicide bomber. Religion is absolutely fundamental to the problem, but because of special pleading the connection which is staring you in the face is denied.

 

Im not saying religion isnt used, like I said its used to paint over a lot of things. My question, however, was do you think all the violence over the last 12 years is based on this factor?

 

Do you think all the violence in Africa/Middle East/West Asia will have no repurcussions? Do you think people will sit back and watch their familys get destroyed by expensive toys? Do you think telling them that mistakes or collateral damage happens makes them feel better? Do you think the US and its allies can go on and interfere in whatever the hell they like and pretend people will not get pissed off? Do you not think people with no way of hitting back, with noone to complain to, will not get desperate?

 

Its just so much easier to blame the stereotype though. Because it makes you feel things in the world are generally okay and there are just a few lunatics who hate our peace. Feel free to decide who is deluded and not though.

[NJS 4355]

9/11 did not come first.

 

In 1993, after the first attack on the World Trade Centre, Ramzi Yousef explained his own motivation, which is very similar to those I posted above...

 

 

 

He was a muslim too...but converted to Christianity in 2005.

 

And of course the founding of Israel and the American support for it has nothing to do with religion......

[Renton 21049]

9/11 did not come first.

 

In 1993, after the first attack on the World Trade Centre, Ramzi Yousef explained his own motivation, which is very similar to those I posted above...

 

Oh well there you go. It's all the Jews fault.

 

Seriously HF, you've got to stop justifying these idiots. They hate our culture and will use any excuse to attack it. It's not palstinians doing this, it's Saudis and Brits who have fuck all to do with the Israel problem other than 'brotherhood'. Which brings me back to my first point.

[NJS 4355]

 

Im not saying religion isnt used, like I said its used to paint over a lot of things. My question, however, was do you think all the violence over the last 12 years is based on this factor?

 

Do you think all the violence in Africa/Middle East/West Asia will have no repurcussions? Do you think people will sit back and watch their familys get destroyed by expensive toys? Do you think telling them that mistakes or collateral damage happens makes them feel better? Do you think the US and its allies can go on and interfere in whatever the hell they like and pretend people will not get pissed off? Do you not think people with no way of hitting back, with noone to complain to, will not get desperate?

 

Its just so much easier to blame the stereotype though. Because it makes you feel things in the world are generally okay and there are just a few lunatics who hate our peace. Feel free to decide who is deluded and not though.

 

There's a lot of support here for the view that western/US actions has had grave consequences but I think ignoring the religious angle is a bit deluded as well.

[Happy Face 29]

Oh well there you go. It's all the Jews fault.

 

Seriously HF, you've got to stop justifying these idiots. They hate our culture and will use any excuse to attack it. It's not palstinians doing this, it's Saudis and Brits who have fuck all to do with the Israel problem other than 'brotherhood'. Which brings me back to my first point.

 

Looking at motivation is not justification. Disappointed you would even think I would justify such a heinous crime.

 

Every murder that happens is investigated from the perspective of motive.

 

Sociopathy (which I include religious fervour in) is not assumed and any other motives ignored.

 

I don't justify any murder the police look for a motive in, but I encourage them to find the cause.

[Happy Face 29]

We have a government that have been engaged in war for over a decade. Approaching twice as long as WW2. There is no exit strategy whatsoever in this war. No plan of defeating the enemy...or even any identification of the enemy, other than 'terror'. They have been remarkably succesful at keeping this war from our doorsteps.

 

When it does visit our shores we give our leaders an excuse to ignore it when we pass it off as religious fruit loops. There is a very real problem to be solved and we should pressure our governments to come up with solutions that will take our citizens out of harms way on the rare occasions they are attacked, but moreso our soldiers who face the danger much more regularly. We owe them that for their sacrifice which is greater than ours.

[Renton 21049]

 

 

Looking at motivation is not justification. Disappointed you would even think I would justify such a heinous crime.

 

Every murder that happens is investigated from the perspective of motive.

 

Sociopathy (which I include religious fervour in) is not assumed and any other motives ignored.

 

I didn't mean it like that, I know you're analyzing motivations but I think you're looking in the wrong place. For whatever reason, western diplomacy can't succeed now.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3788]

Hitler wasn't atheist and certainly didn't kill in the name of atheism, it's boring this untruth is constantly peddled. You can't ban religion, I know. But a concerted effort to move towards a truly secular society where extremism isn't tolerated in any faction would be a start.

 

I never said he killed in the name of Atheism but that religion was not his driver. It could be argued however that he did detest religion as weak and contradictory to his eugenics ideology of the survival of the fittest as he had a go at pretty much every religious group in Germany.

[Happy Face 29]

Speaking outside Downing Street on Thursday, the prime minister said: "One of the best ways of defeating terrorism is to go about our normal lives."

 

Our normal lives where every single email, text and telephone call is now recorded, every flight includes an invasive search and the banning of water...or pop, where police that could detain without charge for 7 days before could then detain for 14 and then 28 days...with 42 days being proposed (and perhaps forced through on the back of this).

 

Way to show the terrorists Dave.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3788]

All thanks to the labour party and Tony Blair