How do Ashley's other business deals affect us?

[BigWalrus 0]

 

 

Reported losses in 2008 for the year previous were £20m. Ashley spent £25m bringing players in though.

 

Who is to say Shepherd would have done that?

 

We'd previously made a £20m loss in 2000...Shepherd had us breaking even again in 2003 & 2004.

 

Profit...but fully reliant on loans and overdraft. We were essentially overtrading.

[Toonpack 9963]

Reported losses in 2008 for the year previous were £20m. Ashley spent £25m bringing players in though.

 

Who is to say Shepherd would have done that?

 

We'd previously made a £20m loss in 2000...Shepherd had us breaking even again in 2003 & 2004.

 

Between 98 and 06 we made profits totalling £12.1 Mill and losses totalling £39.5 Mill. BUT once you look at the real bottom line and add on the dividends and share purchases (when the club bought shares back from SJH) we made a total profit of £200K and total losses of £62 Mill in the same period.

 

We made one "real" profit (in 2004 of £200K) from 98 onwards we made losses (multi million losses) which were, year on year, under £20 Mill virtually in direct proportion to the increase in TV monies we received over the period (plus the champs league windfall).

[Christmas Tree 4831]

.

 

 

 

Thats also being consistant, in the true sense of the word. Inconsistancy is saying you're happy with how he's running the club, 2 months after demanding the sacking of the manager he'd just awarded an 8 year contract to. We misunderstand nothing about him or you. You were told the squad was weak as piss and last season contained a large slice of luck and nothing much was different. You said the manager was all to blame, which in turn was a criticsm of Ashley for persisting with him for a whole 3 months whilst things were a bit grim. Now you're trying to make those of us who correctly said it was the squad rather than the manager give Ashley credit for how he's running the club because results have improved after the squad was strengthened last month You're like a fuckin cock on a weather veign.

 

How in the mind of christ do you have the brass neck to say you're happy with Ashley after wanting his manager sacked no more than 2 months ago? Answer the question

 

Just because I think we can improve on one of his employees doesn't mean I can't see the overall position of the club now v then.

 

I'll also be happy when Shola is upgraded. Does that mean Ashley's crap?

 

Surrounding a poor manager with better players will obviously improve results. Doesn't make him a better manager.

[Toonpack 9963]

That's just a projection though innit. Who knows what would have happened if ashley hadn't taken over?

 

The facts remain though that we never finished lower than 14th under that mob. Ashley has already taken us down once.

 

No-one knows, but I think you can make an educated guess based upon the evidence (and of course add in the banking crash) Didn't need to be Ashley but it needed to be someone with VERY deep pockets.

[Howmanheyman 33851]

Knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

 

HAS THAT ANSWERED YOUR FUCKING QUESTION, WOR KID??!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChezGiven 0]

So everyone who re-convinced themselves in November that they were right all along is just ignoring what happened in January?

 

When i was a nipper i was obsessed with football, played it 7 days a week, loved watching it. Never gave a shite about McKeag or any of the politics but i do clearly remember everyone thinking he was a cunt. I dont really remember much about the Magpie group of the shenanigans before Hall eventually took over but pretty much everyone involved was a cunt. Those that werent cunts were later discovered to be cunts and that was put straight. For all of the Shepherd era, the majority thought he was a cunt. Now Ashley is the cunt except this time the cunt made 2 fateful mistakes, he was born within the sound of Bow bells and he kiilled Bambi. Now, in the north east, no cunt kills Bambi. Shepherd thought about it but he didnt really kill Bambi because, well, because Bambi was a pensioner not a white-talied deer. Ashley, the cunt that he is, killed fucking Bambi and thats unforgiveable tbh.

[Howmanheyman 33851]

He killed Bambi then put a sportsdirect sign on it's corpse. The cunt.

[Tom 14013]

I certainly think the club has lost a lot of its soul & that feels irreparable. In addition the young fans these days are bell ends - singing about Cabaye not being sold? ugh!

[ChezGiven 0]

He killed Bambi then put a sportsdirect sign on it's corpse. The cunt.

You could photo-shop that, print it on a t-shirt and Toffs would sell it.

[Happy Face 29]

I'm sure you know I'm aware of that!

 

Behind the scenes however, we were losing ridiculous amounts of money and were heading for certain administration. Barclays were weeks away from pulling the plug.

 

We are now operating profitably, without silly wages, with a stringent recruitment policy and without the burden of significant external debt. We are such a strong position, comparatively, its untrue.

 

The problem is that Ashley is a long term business strategist and is thinking long term. Fans are impatient and want results now.

 

Shepherd tried the strategy of trying for instant results by throwing money (that's borrowed money, not his own cash) at big signings. It was high risk, and it failed.

 

Look, you don't need to tell me how worrying things were financially under Shepherd. I was one of his harshest critics on that front. The level (lack) of finance we could obtain after the Owen deal is scary to think about, if we hadn't got into Europe then been bought.....who knows.

 

The Owen deal is raised as the worst example, but in 2005 we spent £50m+ on players. Crazy.

 

In the 2 years that followed, up until Ashley bought the club it was only £15m...and we recouped half of that with sales. Shepherd was clearly trying to get a handle on it without jeopardising our poistion.

 

You can't say what was certain or not as you don't have a crystal ball, but we'll have no disagreement the finances were in the shit.

 

The question is whether Ashley has turned that or the club around. When you have even MORE debt and no discernable improvement to any financial measure other than TV income then I don't think you can say he has...yet. We are certainly lucky Ashley has the means to finance the debacle he's overseen though.

[Happy Face 29]

Between 98 and 06 we made profits totalling £12.1 Mill and losses totalling £39.5 Mill. BUT once you look at the real bottom line and add on the dividends and share purchases (when the club bought shares back from SJH) we made a total profit of £200K and total losses of £62 Mill in the same period.

 

We made one "real" profit (in 2004 of £200K) from 98 onwards we made losses (multi million losses) which were, year on year, under £20 Mill virtually in direct proportion to the increase in TV monies we received over the period (plus the champs league windfall).

 

The approach is to not make a profit though, better have that money on the field than be paying tax on it.

 

You can't condemn Shepherd on the one hand because the club only broke even on the back of increased TV money .....and praise Ashley on the other hand, who has only broke even on the back of increased TV money.

 

Especially when Shepherd was bringing in MORE from other revenue streams.

[ChezGiven 0]

I certainly think the club has lost a lot of its soul & that feels irreparable.

I think thats wrong but i know why you say it. I'm not attached to this point of view so feel free to rubbish it but football just reflects the society in which it is played.

 

Also, its one of those phrases that is quite empty when you try to unpick it. What do we mean by soul? The original games played at the poshest public schools before the codification? The relationship between town, club and industry (e.g. Bayer Leverkusen)? The global game played with bare-footed flair on the backstreets of Rio? The artistry and beauty of Barcelona or Dutch total football?

 

If you are referring to an post-industrial revolution soul of football borne out of the working classes then what you are lamenting is not the loss of the soul of a club. Imo.

[Toonpack 9963]

The approach is to not make a profit though, better have that money on the field than be paying tax on it.

 

You can't condemn Shepherd on the one hand because the club only broke even on the back of increased TV money .....and praise Ashley on the other hand, who has only broke even on the back of increased TV money.

 

Especially when Shepherd was bringing in MORE from other revenue streams.

 

The profit allows you to put it on the field consistently and ongoing, putting it on the field from other sources just won't work, especially in todays financial climate if you don't have a Sheik or an Oligarch (or you are Man U).

 

Shepherd once broke even, doesn't matter where the money comes from, and despite putting it "on the field" (and into pockets) the highs were few and far between and getting lower each passing one. There was no future in it. Despite the higher commercial revenues we didn't have a pot to piss in, now we do and we could buy a new bigger pot if we wanted with no concerns.

 

Chez nailed it above.

[Dr Gloom 22157]

Look, you don't need to tell me how worrying things were financially under Shepherd. I was one of his harshest critics on that front. The level (lack) of finance we could obtain after the Owen deal is scary to think about, if we hadn't got into Europe then been bought.....who knows.

 

The Owen deal is raised as the worst example, but in 2005 we spent £50m+ on players. Crazy.

 

In the 2 years that followed, up until Ashley bought the club it was only £15m...and we recouped half of that with sales. Shepherd was clearly trying to get a handle on it without jeopardising our poistion.

 

You can't say what was certain or not as you don't have a crystal ball, but we'll have no disagreement the finances were in the shit.

 

The question is whether Ashley has turned that or the club around. When you have even MORE debt and no discernable improvement to any financial measure other than TV income then I don't think you can say he has...yet. We are certainly lucky Ashley has the means to finance the debacle he's overseen though.

 

that's the thing. for all the fact that he's got our back on the debt situation, the majority of the time he's been in charge, it's been a fiasco, last season aside.

 

for all of shepherd's failings we probably enjoyed as many good seasons under him as we did bad and we never once properly flirted with relegation.

 

i've got a list as long as my arm when it comes to fuckups made by shepherd, but as far as cunts go, ashley wins. definitely the bigger cunt of the two. and as far as on field performances go (what most fans care about most), the chumps that used to run the club are ahead too.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Dr Gloom

[Happy Face 29]

The profit allows you to put it on the field consistently and ongoing, putting it on the field from other sources just won't work, especially in todays financial climate if you don't have a Sheik or an Oligarch (or you are Man U).

 

Shepherd once broke even, doesn't matter where the money comes from, and despite putting it "on the field" (and into pockets) the highs were few and far between and getting lower each passing one. There was no future in it. Despite the higher commercial revenues we didn't have a pot to piss in, now we do and we could buy a new bigger pot if we wanted with no concerns.

 

Chez nailed it above.

 

Ashley has ONCE broke even too.

 

Shepherd did it more than once...he just gave himself and his chums a large reward any time they did it...or not. That took us into a loss.

[Toonpack 9963]

I think thats wrong but i know why you say it. I'm not attached to this point of view so feel free to rubbish it but football just reflects the society in which it is played.

 

Also, its one of those phrases that is quite empty when you try to unpick it. What do we mean by soul? The original games played at the poshest public schools before the codification? The relationship between town, club and industry (e.g. Bayer Leverkusen)? The global game played with bare-footed flair on the backstreets of Rio? The artistry and beauty of Barcelona or Dutch total football?

 

If you are referring to an post-industrial revolution soul of football borne out of the working classes then what you are lamenting is not the loss of the soul of a club. Imo.

 

The club losing it's soul is just the fans up close and personal "hit" from football losing it's soul.

[Toonpack 9963]

Ashley has ONCE broke even too.

 

Shepherd did it more than once...he just gave himself and his chums a large reward any time they did it...or not. That took us into a loss.

 

Aye but the trend is the other way.

 

Whether they did it or not would be more apt.

 

No-one, least of all me, doubts Ashley is a cunt, but the shit he gets for everything is beyond ridiculous.

[Happy Face 29]

Aye but the trend is the other way.

 

Whether they did it or not would be more apt.

 

No-one, least of all me, doubts Ashley is a cunt, but the shit he gets for everything is beyond ridiculous.

 

I think he gets off light. There's NEVER any chanting against him at games any more.

 

He got stick on here in summer....deserved. He got praise in January...deserved.

 

It was Ashley supporter CT who led the debate in this direction.

[Tom 14013]

I think thats wrong but i know why you say it. I'm not attached to this point of view so feel free to rubbish it but football just reflects the society in which it is played.

 

Also, its one of those phrases that is quite empty when you try to unpick it. What do we mean by soul? The original games played at the poshest public schools before the codification? The relationship between town, club and industry (e.g. Bayer Leverkusen)? The global game played with bare-footed flair on the backstreets of Rio? The artistry and beauty of Barcelona or Dutch total football?

 

If you are referring to an post-industrial revolution soul of football borne out of the working classes then what you are lamenting is not the loss of the soul of a club. Imo.

I don't think I really knew what I meant tbh. Nothing to do with commercialism I suppose but there does seem to be a feeling of resignation at times, less direct ambition - despite successes & I think it filters through to the fans. It could also be to do with myself getting older & being introduced and reintroduced to the politics of the game or perhaps more experience - I don't celebrate a goal like I used to and I rarely sing - seems to be getting more common.

[ChezGiven 0]

It was Gloomy and me actually and i posted the response to him in the hope it would stimulate this very discussion.

[Happy Face 29]

By christ I celebrated Cisse's goal on Sunday.

 

You should move to the Strawberry corner Tom

[Happy Face 29]

About time he got some credit for transforming this club from the shambles it was into what it is today.

 

He personally can only put the framework in place. It's up to others to deliver the rest.

 

Do you not think the club is in a better all round position now than when he took over?

 

Can't find your posts that precede that asking owt similar CG.

 

happy to be corrected.

[Tom 14013]

By christ I celebrated Cisse's goal on Sunday.

 

You should move to the Strawberry corner Tom

To sing about Lee Cattermole? I did go mental on Sunday like but I was very much still pissed, was in leazes level 6, perfect seat for that rocket.

[ChezGiven 0]

Can't find your posts that precede that asking owt similar CG.

 

happy to be corrected.

No, you're right i just hadnt read any of the rest of the thread apart from the op and Gloomy's response.

[Happy Face 29]

About time he got some credit for transforming this club from the shambles it was into what it is today.

 

Going back to this.

 

On 28/02/2007 - 6 years ago today, we were...

 

11th in the league - currently 13th

On 36 points - currently 30

13 points clear of relegation - currently 6

In the last 16 of the UEFA cup

out of the domestic cups

 

...3 months from take-over.

 

A couple of more league wins and we'll be exactly as we were when he took over. Big moment. Will he move us onwards and upwards, maintain the status quo, or repeat any of his failures.