The Fish 10779 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 faith based education system terrifies me, I can't think of a positive to be taken from ingraining real studies with works of flight and fancy. The Moral and ethical codes can (and should) be taught at home if this takes the form of a religion then I guess that's a neat way to package a set of principles that will better prepare the child for social interaction. But to poison legitimate work with such a secular framework is insane in my eyes. sure it might be alright under a (fairly) centrered government, but what happens when more extreme parties grow in power and influence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21393 Posted January 17, 2006 Author Share Posted January 17, 2006 faith based education system terrifies me, I can't think of a positive to be taken from ingraining real studies with works of flight and fancy. The Moral and ethical codes can (and should) be taught at home if this takes the form of a religion then I guess that's a neat way to package a set of principles that will better prepare the child for social interaction. But to poison legitimate work with such a secular framework is insane in my eyes.sure it might be alright under a (fairly) centrered government, but what happens when more extreme parties grow in power and influence? 80732[/snapback] I agree with that, but even under a moderate government it's dangerous. Look no further than Northern Ireland to see why - and they practically believe in the same thing! What's going to happen in the next generation when kids have been brainwashed to be evangelical christians, orthodox jews, or fundamental muslims! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10779 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 anyone fancy a crusade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4375 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 The thing is theres a correlation between faith schools and good results - parents/politicians add 2 and 2 and make 5 - they think its the faith element that matters instead of looking at other factors. I went to a catholic school which did overdo the god element but at the same time I felt that the good results came more from the fact that the kids were brought up "right" and worked harder/behaved. By this I don't mean only catholics behave or have intelligence but the morals which I don't think have to be linked to a god are pretty good (as I've always said). As long as the curriculum keeps it to a minimum (I'd not teach it at all a la USA) then the actual education element isn't that bad. The divisive social aspects are however a timebomb imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10779 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 I agree that the more controlled environment of religously motivated schools will be more condusive to better grades. But if you could replicates the structure without replicating the indoctrination you would, I hope, find innovation and obedience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Schools in posh areas get better grades too. Ban the poor tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10779 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 if wishing made it so tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4375 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Schools in posh areas get better grades too. Ban the poor tbh. 80794[/snapback] Thats the problem with the latest proposals of trust schools - they will know that their income will depend on the income of their kid's parents and will start recruiting on "poshness" for want of a better word thus perpetuating the divide. What they need to do is find out the root key to good results which I hope isn't as simple as class/location or faith and apply it everywhere [/idealist] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10779 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 would it be possible to encourage graduates to spend a year teaching, thereby alleviating some of the work for career teachers, and providing a good example to the up-and-coming kids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 What if it wasn't an accident that education standards are quite low?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 What if it wasn't an accident that education standards are quite low?! 80859[/snapback] I believe Cuba has better levels of child literacy than the UK. What's all that about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10779 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 it's neccesity, they need to read the instructions in there "How to start a drugs cartel" handbook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 it's neccesity, they need to read the instructions in there "How to start a drugs cartel" handbook 80962[/snapback] Is Cuba particularly known for it's drugs cartels like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Just watched the second part of this, a couple of things occured to me:- He's not trying to convince the believers, anyone who agrees with him is already and atheist, most likely, he seems to be drumming up support for an anti-faith crusade. He's not very good at on-the-fly rhetoric, none of the debates he's had have been very involved. Yes, it's hard to talk to these people but he's not pushing the debate in the right direction. I don't think it's meekness either, he's said some pretty inflammatory things to some of these religious leaders. He's very optimistic about human nature for an evolutionary scientist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10779 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 it's neccesity, they need to read the instructions in there "How to start a drugs cartel" handbook 80962[/snapback] Is Cuba particularly known for it's drugs cartels like? 80963[/snapback] no, and that's why they're the best ones or it could be that I wasn't paying particular attention... saw a country beginning with C, ending in A and having U and B somewhere in the middle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 it's neccesity, they need to read the instructions in there "How to start a drugs cartel" handbook 80962[/snapback] Is Cuba particularly known for it's drugs cartels like? 80963[/snapback] no 81039[/snapback] That was the point I was making Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4375 Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 Just watched the second part - He said pretty much what I would have said - especially his opinion that if an "untainted" and rational person had the major religions explained to them they would think it was "barking mad" - and that indoctrination of children is tantamount to mental abuse. I'm also glad he stated my view that morals for the sake of the actual morals are "more noble" than morals adhered to from fear of damnation or promise of reward. That pastors idea tha the only religion stops people from being rapists and murderers I found particularly "evil" in the true sense. I also loved the fact that he explained that morals have a Darwinian purpose and that that they are therefore much older and more natural than any religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21393 Posted January 5, 2007 Author Share Posted January 5, 2007 Blast from the past, nearly a year ago in fact! Just brought this up as I've recently finished "the God Delusion" by Dawkins. I would regard this as an essential read for theists, agnostics, and atheists alike, all for different reasons. There are certainly aspects that you can criticise Dawkins for in this book, but, after reading several reviews, particularly and predictably hysterically negative ones from religious groups, no-one has been able to satisfactorily answer his points on a number of key observations, most of which were shown with less depth or humour in "the Root of all evil". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo 174 Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Blast from the past, nearly a year ago in fact! Just brought this up as I've recently finished "the God Delusion" by Dawkins. I would regard this as an essential read for theists, agnostics, and atheists alike, all for different reasons. There are certainly aspects that you can criticise Dawkins for in this book, but, after reading several reviews, particularly and predictably hysterically negative ones from religious groups, no-one has been able to satisfactorily answer his points on a number of key observations, most of which were shown with less depth or humour in "the Root of all evil". Currently reading Derren Brown's book, he has high praise for Dawkin's work on religion, I wish I had seen it. This is also well worth a read: Bertrand Russell: Why I am not a christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21393 Posted January 5, 2007 Author Share Posted January 5, 2007 Blast from the past, nearly a year ago in fact! Just brought this up as I've recently finished "the God Delusion" by Dawkins. I would regard this as an essential read for theists, agnostics, and atheists alike, all for different reasons. There are certainly aspects that you can criticise Dawkins for in this book, but, after reading several reviews, particularly and predictably hysterically negative ones from religious groups, no-one has been able to satisfactorily answer his points on a number of key observations, most of which were shown with less depth or humour in "the Root of all evil". Currently reading Derren Brown's book, he has high praise for Dawkin's work on religion, I wish I had seen it. This is also well worth a read: Bertrand Russell: Why I am not a christian. I'll get round to that one day, it's cited heavily in the God Delusion. On the back cover there is a quote from Derren Brown saying the God Delusion is his favourite book of all time - high praise indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo 174 Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Blast from the past, nearly a year ago in fact! Just brought this up as I've recently finished "the God Delusion" by Dawkins. I would regard this as an essential read for theists, agnostics, and atheists alike, all for different reasons. There are certainly aspects that you can criticise Dawkins for in this book, but, after reading several reviews, particularly and predictably hysterically negative ones from religious groups, no-one has been able to satisfactorily answer his points on a number of key observations, most of which were shown with less depth or humour in "the Root of all evil". Currently reading Derren Brown's book, he has high praise for Dawkin's work on religion, I wish I had seen it. This is also well worth a read: Bertrand Russell: Why I am not a christian. I'll get round to that one day, it's cited heavily in the God Delusion. On the back cover there is a quote from Derren Brown saying the God Delusion is his favourite book of all time - high praise indeed. Just had a quick search, and both The God Delusion and Root of all evil are on Bittorrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo 174 Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 I've just finished watching part 1, and was amused to find this regarding the vile Pastor Ted Haggard who featured in the show. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6117806.stm Top US pastor sacked amid sex row One of the US's most influential evangelical preachers has been dismissed by his church for what it called "sexually immoral conduct". The Reverend Ted Haggard, a vocal opponent of gay marriage, on Friday admitted buying drugs and having a massage from a gay masseur. But he denied using the methamphetamine or having sex with the man. The New Life Church said its inquiries and his public statements proved Pastor Haggard had committed immoral conduct. It has been decided that "the most positive and productive direction for our church is his dismissal and removal," the Colorado-based church said in a statement on its website. Mr Haggard, who on Thursday stepped down as the head of the 30m-strong National Association of Evangelicals, said he bought methamphetamine but "never used it". The issue is being played out against the backdrop of a vote in Colorado and seven other US states on Tuesday on whether to ban same-sex marriages. Mr Haggard, 50, has been a vocal opponent of the unions. Denver man Mike Jones, 49, told a radio show he had been paid to have sex with Mr Haggard nearly every month over the past three years. Mr Haggard said he had not had sex with Mr Jones but did receive a massage after being referred to him by a Denver hotel. Mr Haggard, who is also known as "Pastor Ted" and has five children, has close contacts with the White House. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4375 Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Yeah I read The God Delusion a couple of months ago - its a bit "preaching to the converted" as I can't see dyed in the wool theists having a revelation after reading it. Aiming it at the people he says it is - people who've been brainwashed but are feeling uneasy in the face of thought - might work. The Haggard story did make me laugh - I don't care that he's gay but the hypocrisy is hilarious. I'd recommend Dawkins' new web site: http://richarddawkins.net/home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 10779 Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 Yeah I read The God Delusion a couple of months ago - its a bit "preaching to the converted" as I can't see dyed in the wool theists having a revelation after reading it. Aiming it at the people he says it is - people who've been brainwashed but are feeling uneasy in the face of thought - might work. The Haggard story did make me laugh - I don't care that he's gay but the hypocrisy is hilarious. I'd recommend Dawkins' new web site: http://richarddawkins.net/home American government is littered with ironic stories like that. Wasn't the guy in charge of investigating child abuse found to be taking advantage of interns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheInspiration 1 Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 (edited) It's all religion's fault. We'd be much better off with atheists. Hitler, Stalin, Mao woulf be great examples. Edited January 6, 2007 by TheInspiration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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