The root of all evil

[Renton 21626]

So you disagree with NJS then? I can see specific problems with Islam practically and philosophically and I don't think it's irrational or islamophobic to state this.

[Happy Face 29]

what a brilliant article: very revealing about the irrational underpinnings of modern positivism

 

it's going to be interesting to see the reaction to it

 

Harris put up a post on his blog.

 

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/dear-fellow-liberal2

[SloopJohn 0]

Harris put up a post on his blog.

 

http://www.samharris...fellow-liberal2

 

Didn't really add much to it tbh

[Happy Face 29]

So you disagree with NJS then? I can see specific problems with Islam practically and philosophically and I don't think it's irrational or islamophobic to state this.

 

I think I do.

 

Seems like saying black people pose more of a problem than chinese...but that's not racist.

[Renton 21626]

 

 

I think I do.

 

Seems like saying black people pose more of a problem than chinese...but that's not racist.

 

Is that racist if it's true?

 

Not even sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing here.

[Happy Face 29]

 

Is that racist if it's true?

 

Not even sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing here.

 

I am disagreeing with you and NJS.

 

Its not true and it is racist.

[Renton 21626]

If it was true black people caused more of a problem (whatever hypothetical problem this was) than Chinese people, it's racist for me to want to discuss this? Wtf?

 

There might be empirical evidence that Muslim immigrants integrate less than other immigrants, which I think is detrimental to society. But according to you, I'd be a racist to point this out.

 

Despite the fact it's a religious matter and not a racial one btw. Did you watch 'My brother the islamist'? Might be worth you checking that out before proclaiming all religion's are equivalent.

[Happy Face 29]

If it was true black people caused more of a problem (whatever hypothetical problem this was) than Chinese people, it's racist for me to want to discuss this? Wtf?

 

There might be empirical evidence that Muslim immigrants integrate less than other immigrants, which I think is detrimental to society. But according to you, I'd be a racist to point this out.

 

Despite the fact it's a religious matter and not a racial one btw. Did you watch 'My brother the islamist'? Might be worth you checking that out before proclaiming all religion's are equivalent.

 

You're working with ifs and buts and vague nations of truth. The quotes in the article about Islam being a particularly abhorrent religion are about as clear an example of prejudice as you could come across.

[NJS 4386]

 

 

You're working with ifs and buts and vague nations of truth. The quotes in the article about Islam being a particularly abhorrent religion are about as clear an example of prejudice as you could come across.

 

It is a particularly abhorrent religion though.

 

Of course theres a cultural element and there are examples of nutjobs across all the others but if you combine FGM, general mysogyny and the brutality of sharia nothing else comes close.

[Renton 21626]

Man in Saudi going to be paralyzed from the waist down as part of Sharia law....... [\racist].

[ChezGiven 0]

Can't be arsed to read the articles but has the Saudi case that was on newsnight been mentioned? An Islamic court has ruled a man should be paralysed from the waste down by injection as punishment for a crime he committed many years ago as a teenager. I think the victim was paralysed so the court ruled that the most appropriate punishment for the perpetrator was the same. Or a fine. If he can pay a fine he won't be paralysed. It would be funny if it wasn't so abhorrent.

[Happy Face 29]

It is a particularly abhorrent religion though.

Of course theres a cultural element and there are examples of nutjobs across all the others but if you combine FGM, general mysogyny and the brutality of sharia nothing else comes close.

 

Those are disgusting things, I despise as much as you, so do not take the following as a defense of any of them. But it's worth looking at each, considering the church position on them and then comparing it with other church positions on equally vile things.

 

 

FGM

Still not illegal in christian nations like America. In Europe it's only outlawed in the United Kingdom, Sweden, and Belgium. Rather than necessarily a Muslim requirement it is a cultural throw back. Many Middle Eastern countries do not practice it at all, like Libya, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iran, and Iraq. It's illegal in Egypt. It is most prevalent in Africa where large contributors are tradition, honour, myths on the health benefits, the rite of passage and the gifts bestowed when it's done.

 

Although the likelihood of having been circumcised increases with the Muslim population, this does not mean that the entire religion condones the practice. Muslim leaders have claimed that FGM is a cultural tradition that is unrelated to the teachings of Islam, and are campaigning for its abandonment.

 

One man in a village in Niger speaks of the reason they practice this tradition, “we learned it from our ancestors and practice it in the name of culture. There is no other reason. It is a tradition that is done to satisfy our ancestors”

 

In Islamic texts, FGM is referred to as khaf or khifa. According to McAuliffe, female genital cutting is not commanded by the Qur'an, however, Type 1 circumcision (also called Sunna Circumcision) is practised by many Sunni Muslims although it has a controversial religious basis in Islam, and is mainly derived from culture. Cultural and religious intertwining caused the incorrect belief that female circumcision is related to the religion of Islam.

 

Sheikh Ali Gomaa has stated that "excision is a practice totally banned by Islam because of the compelling evidence of the extensive damage it causes to women's bodies and minds."

 

Now compare that with the official stance of the Christian church on the spread of Aids. They are wholly dismissive of the fact and STILL insist that the simple use of a condom will send the wearer to hell.

 

Two awful traditions causing untold harm around the world, the Christian church condones and contributes officially to one of them with some influential members in opposition, Islam opposes and educates officially on the other with some influential members in opposition.

 

 

General Mysogyny

I think this is pretty vague. There was just a new pope elected and there were no women up for the job that I'm aware of. Polygamy is rife with Mormons. In Scientology, L Ron Hubbard says

 

 

A society in which women are taught anything but the management of a family, the care of men, and the creation of the future generation is a society which is on its way out. The historian can peg the point where a society begins its sharpest decline at the instant when women begin to take part, on an equal footing with men, in political and business affairs, since this means that the men are decadent and the women are no longer women. This is not a sermon on the role or position of women; it is a statement of bald and basic fact.

 

Domestic violence and honour killings are part of Sikh culture. The Muslim view of Women is reprehinsible...but they're not alone.

 

Sharia

Many of the laws in sharia are repellent such as the illegality of homosexuality - but I do not know of a religion going that currently tolerates homosexuality. It's easy to forget how recently it was illegal around the entire world. The USA only legalised homosexual activity in 1994. Dozens of countries not under Sharia law still have a zero tolerance to it, largely in Africa and the Middle east, but also in South America and the far East.

 

Freedom of Speech is also bashed too. Blasphemy laws in Sharia are off the hook, but while the Quran prohibits insulting the profit it does not demand the death penalty for blasphemy. Similarly though, in the UK you can be charged for blasphemy. My favourite comedian Stewart Lee fell foul of this archaic law in 2007 when he had to answer charges of Blasphemy from christian groups for his production Jerry Springer: The Musical.

 

I think the law in the USA can be equally as barbaric as Sharia, to this day. In the 2000s the USA were executing twice as many people as they were in the 60s. They execute handicapped peoplein the US. Since 1976 22 Americanshave been executed for crimes committed as children. They imprison thousands for life after 3 petty crimes.

 

 

 

 

Again, none of this is a defence of the Islamic religion. But I think the assumption that it is worse than any other religion clearly has a basis in prejudice when you compare it with other equally vile institutions. I think there is a view that Catholics and Jews on a whole are good people despite the teachings of their churches and political leadership, because they are us....but muslims are on the whole enthusiastically violent and supportive of the worst parts of their religion...because they are the other.

[Renton 21626]

Fucking hell HF, you don't half spout some shit when you want to. It's pathetic you think a few ridiculous and largely ignored edicts from the Vatican equate to the religious brutality of wahabi Saudi Arabia. So ridiculous i refuse to even debate it.

 

I went to see Jerry Springer the musical and engaged with polite conversation with some christians who were against it. I also really want to see the Book of Mormon which I understand is actually welcomed by mormons (any publicity is good publicity etc). I reckon you should write 'Jerry Springer the musical: muslim edition'. See what response you get. Oh, and you might want to try and stage the first production in Mecca while you're at it.

[NJS 4386]

Again, none of this is a defence of the Islamic religion. But I think the assumption that it is worse than any other religion clearly has a basis in prejudice when you compare it with other equally vile institutions.

 

I've said before that I think the Catholic church is the most evil inrtitution on Earth and I stand by that - its also the one I have the most knowledge of and the most reason to reject personally which I'm happy to do and I recognise the insanity of the other others but I still think Islam stands out.

 

 

I think there is a view that Catholics and Jews on a whole are good people despite the teachings of their churches and political leadership, because they are us....but muslims are on the whole enthusiastically violent and supportive of the worst parts of their religion...because they are the other.

 

That's not my view of Muslims - I mostly see them as victims of their culture and regret that most don't have the simple choice of opting out that others have in other parts of the world.

 

The reason I see Islam as more of a threat is geo-political rather than necessarily theological (though as I say I think thats bad as well) and of course the western nations have played a part in that with their actions in the middle east. However the mix of Islam, culture and history does make the mix more toxic than other areas. I think its a shame that South America and Africa are under the thrall of catholicism and/or toxic brands of christianity but in general they are being "corrupted" nicely by western ideals and I think they'll be okay evenetually. The problem with the Islamic world is that though western influence is having an affect, their starting point is much lower.

[Happy Face 29]

Fucking hell HF, you don't half spout some shit when you want to. It's pathetic you think a few ridiculous and largely ignored edicts from the Vatican equate to the religious brutality of wahabi Saudi Arabia. So ridiculous i refuse to even debate it.

 

I went to see Jerry Springer the musical and engaged with polite conversation with some christians who were against it. I also really want to see the Book of Mormon which I understand is actually welcomed by mormons (any publicity is good publicity etc). I reckon you should write 'Jerry Springer the musical: muslim edition'. See what response you get. Oh, and you might want to try and stage the first production in Mecca while you're at it.

 

As supportive of the war against Islamic nations as Harris is, Saudi Arabia is one of our closest allies, so the invasion he backs is clearly not in any way one of liberation from the brutality we lament.

 

I don't know how you can cite Jerry Springer (as I did) where the creators ended up in court defending themselves from STATE charges of blasphemy here in the UK as an example of christian tolerance as opposed to some imagined Muslim musical.

 

I do like "Muslim, The Muisical" though....

 

 

Salman Rushdie says that the Satanic Verses probably would not get published now, but it was back in '88. That does not suggest the ancient religion has an entenched violent reaction to any criticism, but one that has been whipped up in recent history. Salman Rushdie himself has not come to any harm. I am sure he has had many polite conversations with other Muslims too.

[Renton 21626]

You must be being deliberately contrary. Jerry Springer the opera (not musical, my bad) was broadcast on TV man. I'm sorry but no-one would be brave enough to air an islamic equivalent. Even South Park backed down from showing images of the profit ([sic] ). Are you seriously using the Satanic Verses as an example of muslim tolerance btw, I'm struggling to understand this point in your post.

 

The point is, not all religions and cults are equivalent in their 'badness' and imo islam is by far the worst most repressive backward major religion out there. You're free to disagree and obviously you do. But to pull the racist card out in a presumed attempt to stifle free speech on the matter is ridiculous. It's not got anything to do with race anyway, watch 'My brother the islamist' if you get the chance.

[Happy Face 29]

The reason I see Islam as more of a threat is geo-political rather than necessarily theological (though as I say I think thats bad as well) and of course the western nations have played a part in that with their actions in the middle east. However the mix of Islam, culture and history does make the mix more toxic than other areas. I think its a shame that South America and Africa are under the thrall of catholicism and/or toxic brands of christianity but in general they are being "corrupted" nicely by western ideals and I think they'll be okay evenetually. The problem with the Islamic world is that though western influence is having an affect, their starting point is much lower.

 

The only realistic threat on the geo-politcal stage is the west though. We are the ones bombing muslims in 6 or 7 middle eastern and African countries at the moment.

 

I just finished watching "The Trap" last night. Another Adam Curtis 3 parter about notions of freedom. The final part concentrates on postitive and negative freedom. The notion that a few elites know what is best for nations around the globe and should force freedom upon them, through violent supression of opposition where necessary.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_(TV_series)

 

For millions of Muslims freedom is not democracy, it's freedom from international interference. The west forcing democracies on them is the danger, not the reaction to it.

[Happy Face 29]

You must be being deliberately contrary. Jerry Springer the opera (not musical, my bad) was broadcast on TV man. I'm sorry but no-one would be brave enough to air an islamic equivalent. Even South Park backed down from showing images of the profit ([sic] ). Are you seriously using the Satanic Verses as an example of muslim tolerance btw, I'm struggling to understand this point in your post.

 

The point is, not all religions and cults are equivalent in their 'badness' and imo islam is by far the worst most repressive backward major religion out there. You're free to disagree and obviously you do. But to pull the racist card out in a presumed attempt to stifle free speech on the matter is ridiculous. It's not got anything to do with race anyway, watch 'My brother the islamist' if you get the chance.

 

South Park did not back down from showing images or mentioning Mohammed. Comedy Central made the decision above their heads.

 

You seem to have been making the point that no artist would dare offend muslims. My point is that this just isn't true. Salman Rushdie Rushdie did it. Matt Stone and Trey Parker were happy to, but the corporation that airs their show refused. Then there is this...

 

http://en.wikipedia....i/Mahomet_(play)

 

Or this...

 

http://en.wikipedia....Platform_(novel)

 

or this...

 

http://en.wikipedia....A_God_Who_Hates

 

Or any of these...

 

http://en.wikipedia....itical_of_Islam

 

All got a response in one way or another, some to MUCH greater degrees than others...and probably as the authors expected.

 

The Life of Brian was banned in several countries including UK autorities (Torbay only relinquished the ban in 2008).

 

The Last Temptation of Christ was banned in many countries and remains so in a few. Christian Fundamentalists launched Moltov cocktails at a theatre showing the film.

 

I don't pull the racist card against factual statements. Your pithy comment about the lad getting paralysed wasn't racist, it's was a sad fact. Broad generalisations about hundreds of millions of individuals tend towards prejudice though.

 

Christians do not a pose unique danger because American courts sentence children and handicapped individuals to death. Similarly muslims are no more a unique threat because of the awful case you and Chez mention.

[Renton 21626]

It's an extreme case but it's not isolated. The wahabism of Saudi and the Sharia of the Taleban in Afghanistan represent some of the most brutal and repressed societies - if you can call them that - in the World. Obviously other muslim countries are not as bad, but I make no apologies for making the generalisation that most islamic countries do not share the freedoms enjoyed by western nominal christian countries. Especially if you are a woman, are gay, or are an infidel.

 

Regarding censorship, why do you think Comedy Central pulled it? Because they were specifically worried by the anticipated muslim reaction it would generate. After all, it was a spoof of the Danish cartoon fiasco - no fictionalisation was even necessary to illustrate the absurd sensitivities of a large proportion of muslims. Comparisons with the fuss over the Life of brian - which is now completely mainstream - are absurd, a muslim equivalent would provoke a full scale jihad.

 

I'm not particularly interested in the geopolitics of this in the same way you are btw, I'm more bothered about the the impact of militant islamism on British society, in particular in the strive for secularism. I've mentioned it twice now, but I highly recommend the documentary on Richard Dart as an insight into extremism in the UK. It's on You Tube I think. As far as I am aware there are no equivalent zealots representative of other religions present in the UK.

[Happy Face 29]

It's an extreme case but it's not isolated. The wahabism of Saudi and the Sharia of the Taleban in Afghanistan represent some of the most brutal and repressed societies - if you can call them that - in the World. Obviously other muslim countries are not as bad, but I make no apologies for making the generalisation that most islamic countries do not share the freedoms enjoyed by western nominal christian countries. Especially if you are a woman, are gay, or are an infidel.

 

Indeed they do, but again, you seem to be focusing entirely on the grotesque state of affairs in muslim countries while painting a rosy picture of the freedoms non-muslim countries enjoy. In Russia the Orthodox church has been guilty of forcing children into 19 hour days of labour and abuse. As mentioned, America has state approved executions of the weakest and must vulnerable in society. The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world. They have 5% of the earths population but 25% of the prisoners. It also incarcerates more of it's youth than any other nation on the planet.

 

Those freedom hating Muslims.

 

Regarding censorship, why do you think Comedy Central pulled it? Because they were specifically worried by the anticipated muslim reaction it would generate. After all, it was a spoof of the Danish cartoon fiasco - no fictionalisation was even necessary to illustrate the absurd sensitivities of a large proportion of muslims. Comparisons with the fuss over the Life of brian - which is now completely mainstream - are absurd, a muslim equivalent would provoke a full scale jihad.

 

The Danish Cartoons were surely a muslim equivalent. But despite death threats, I don't know of any of those involved suffering violent retribution though. The riots that are sparked by such things are not really about the comics either. Like the London riots, there is a spark that gets it started, but there is MUCH more that leads to the kind of anger that perpetuates the demonstrations and turns them violent.

 

I'm not particularly interested in the geopolitics of this in the same way you are btw, I'm more bothered about the the impact of militant islamism on British society, in particular in the strive for secularism. I've mentioned it twice now, but I highly recommend the documentary on Richard Dart as an insight into extremism in the UK. It's on You Tube I think. As far as I am aware there are no equivalent zealots representative of other religions present in the UK.

 

The problem with not being interested in the politics and then blaming Islam for all the worlds ills, is that Muslims like Hart are highly motivated by politics. By the fact we are bombing many muslim nations.

 

There are no equivalent opponents because we are not killing Sikhs or Buddhists or Taoists around the globe.

[Happy Face 29]

There's been a further update on the article itself....I'll not post all of it, but the link is there...

 

Here's a 2008 interview with the great war journalist Chris Hedges on what he concluded after reviewing the work of "New Atheists" such as Harris and Hitchens: "I was appalled at how they essentially co-opted secular language to present the same kind of chauvinism, intolerance, and bigotry that we see in the Christian right." He adds:

"They're secular fundamentalists. . . . I find that it's, like the Christian right, a fear based movement. It's a movement that is very much a reaction to 9/11. The kinds of things that they write about Muslims could be lifted from the most rabid sermon by a radical fundamentalist."

 

Having dealt somewhat extensively with Harris and many of his supporters this week, I can say that I haven't encountered such religious-type fervor and jingoistic and tribalistic self-love (My Side is superior to Theirs!!) in quite a long time.

 

Meanwhile, even Christopher Hitchens - Harris' comrade in US militarism - denounced Harris' statement that "the people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists." Wrote Hitchens in 2006 shortly after Harris wrote that: "When I read Sam Harris's irresponsible remark that only fascists seemed to have the right line, I murmured to myself: 'Not while I'm alive, they won't.'" I think Harris' "fascists" comment is far from his worst statement - it has the limited significance I outlined - but if Christopher Hitchens, of all people, is telling you that you're being "irresponsible" in your anti-Islam advocacy, that's a pretty strong sign that you've gone way too far.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/03/sam-harris-muslim-animus

[Renton 21626]

 

 

Indeed they do, but again, you seem to be focusing entirely on the grotesque state of affairs in muslim countries while painting a rosy picture of the freedoms non-muslim countries enjoy. In Russia the Orthodox church has been guilty of forcing children into 19 hour days of labour and abuse. As mentioned, America has state approved executions of the weakest and must vulnerable in society. The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world. They have 5% of the earths population but 25% of the prisoners. It also incarcerates more of it's youth than any other nation on the planet.

 

Those freedom hating Muslims.

 

 

 

The Danish Cartoons were surely a muslim equivalent. But despite death threats, I don't know of any of those involved suffering violent retribution though. The riots that are sparked by such things are not really about the comics either. Like the London riots, there is a spark that gets it started, but there is MUCH more that leads to the kind of anger that perpetuates the demonstrations and turns them violent.

 

 

 

The problem with not being interested in the politics and then blaming Islam for all the worlds ills, is that Muslims like Hart are highly motivated by politics. By the fact we are bombing many muslim nations.

 

There are no equivalent opponents because we are not killing Sikhs or Buddhists or Taoists around the globe.

 

Well, that's another thing specific to Muslims isn't it, the notion of brotherhood or should I say victimhood? There's been numerous wars involving Christians and other faiths, but you don't get Christian suicide bombers as a result.

 

I realise I am becoming the new Leazes here btw, not a concept I'm entirely comfortable with.

[Renton 21626]

Oh, except for Tamils perhaps....

[SloopJohn 0]

Well, that's another thing specific to Muslims isn't it, the notion of brotherhood or should I say victimhood? There's been numerous wars involving Christians and other faiths, but you don't get Christian suicide bombers as a result.

 

I realise I am becoming the new Leazes here btw, not a concept I'm entirely comfortable with.

 

The first terrorist organisation to practice suicide bombing were atheist - The Tamil Tigers. Either way it doesn't mean anything - just shows the human animals unique capacity for organised and systematic cruelty no matter the ideological underpinnings.

[Park Life 71]

 

 

"Prior to the 2003 invasion and occupation of Iraq, US and other western oil companies were all but completely shut out of Iraq's oil market,"

Edited April 7, 2013 by Park Life